It's time for a new debate topic! In this topic we can debate whether or not an protagonist would be able to win against/survive an unrelated antagonist. :D As in Could Batman catch Green Goblin, or who would win: the Joker vs. The Shadow...


And to start it off, todays debate:

WHO WOULD WIN, SHERLOCK HOLMES OR JIGSAW(THE BAD GUY IN THE SAW MOVIES)! :ok: :D

Debate and let each other know what you think. :D


My vote: Sherlock Holmes would easily figure out jigsaws traps and find all the uninjuring ways out of jigsaw's lairs. Then he'd hire Chuck Norris to kick Jigsaw through the space-time continuum. :D

The guy from the SAW movies will win..

He simply doesnt got any soul so no barriers and that makes him a killer....sherlock will always think twice before killing the other and on that moment he will strike with all his power and sherlok will be gone :Titan:

I think Sherlock would kick Jigsaw's booty.

Don't get me wrong, Jigsaw is one of the coolest horror/suspense antagonists to come out in many years, and he's rather smart, but Sherlock is just The Man.

I mean, Jigsaw pits himself against people who aren't even a tenth as brilliant as Sherlock. I just don't think he'd have the practice necessary to handle Sherlock's keen observational eye.

Edit: Uhh... edited to use the proper antagonist name (thanks Faw) :tomato:

:D

Well, I guess it would be Jigsaw.

Sherlock may be a bit more intelligent than his other victims, but he can just give him half of the time to figure out the puzzle before it kills him ;)

Also, I don't think Sherlock could find any not-harmful way to get a key from behind his eye ;)

Sherlock!

i think it would depend on how much opium sherlock had smoked on the day he met jigsaw.

Maybe Sherlock Holmes would be put in a chamber full of either 1. gas concentrated with so much opium that overexposure could cause overdose...the catch, its foggy and sherlock can't see where the key to get out is in the maze he's been locked in.
Or 2. Sherlock Holmes must get to some opium, but he can't reach it, its past 50 whirling blades he has to manuever around. Sounds like the sort of thing Saw freak would come up with. :sneaky:

EDIT: And what about Watson, what would he be put up against?:P

I do not know who this Jigsaw is, but the implications from what has been said, so far, about Jigsaw is that he gimmicks up a danger room, and then releases a victim into it.

Sherlock Holmes is a lot like Batman. He does not have all of Batman's fancy toys, but against the criminals he faces, he does not need them. Holmes is described by Dr. Watson, his biographer and former roommate, as someone who could easily win the boxing championship for his weight class. He is also every bit as implacable; although, he has been magnanimous to a defeated foe of the lessor sort (the concierge who succumbed to temptation and stole a valuable gem is not turned over to the police, as Holmes observes that he is hardly likely to reoffend and the gem has been recovered). Unlike Batman, Holmes has killed people, and he is every bit as ruthless as the Dark Knight. It should be noted that Holmes has killed the hard way, with no tools but his empty hands. Holmes may not carry a gun, but Watson is always ready to accompany Holmes with his sharp eye and service revolver. So far, in my readings, Watson has never fired a shot, but he has always been rather sanguine about the possibility of inflicting the sorts of wounds that he would be unable to heal.

The only reason for Holmes to be anywhere near one of Jigsaw's danger rooms is to trigger it prematurely, while Jigsaw is still setting it up, to hoist Jigsaw by his own petard. Holmes believed that kind of irony to be the best justice.

The only reason that Moriarty got as close to killing Holmes as he did was because Doyle was sick to death of the character, and killing him seemed the only way to get out from under Holmes' shadow. Unfortunately for Doyle, and happily for the rest of us, popular demand forced Doyle to admit that tales of Holmes' demise were greatly exaggerated.

Well, Jigsaw kidnaps his victims and puts them in a danger lair, not just one room sometimes, where they have to follow his riddles to get out, sometimes having to kill each other, or mame themselves to get out. But each room has a danger to it. Soemtimes he doesn't even put them in a danger room, as evidenced by the venus fly trap incident where jigsaw surgically hid a key under a mans eye, the key was to a head trap that if not activated by the key, would snap a hundred needles into the mans head. The man was not successful in getting the key. Usually each situation has three solutions. One gets the victim killed. One where the victim gets himself killed or mamed. Or one around both. I believe Holmes could find a way around both. Jigsaw also has traps designed to take care of any people sent to rescue any victims.

Another thing though is the fact that, as you said, Holmes is strong. I don't see how Jigsaw could possibly kidnap a full grown Holmes. It's like trying to survive a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick. As far as irony, one of the best ironys would be for Jigsaw to end up getting caught in one of his own traps. I think that'd really "hoist him up by his own petard". :D One big thing though is the fact that, if Holmes was put in the danger lair scenario, Jigsaw would have other people there, and I'm not sure how Holmes would handle that part of the situation.

Jigsaw is unlikely to pick Holmes as a victim. It should be known that the only reason that anyone knows anything about Holmes is that his friend Watson chronicled his adventures, in a sufficiently involving manner that a publisher printed them. He has a reputation, but he is not especially famous, before Watson's books are published. In fact, he is nearly destitute when Watson first meets him, as he has yet to find a way to make any money from being a consulting detective (in fact, Watson moves in with him to split the rent on rooms that Holmes cannot pay for out of his own resources). Jigsaw is unlikely to know of him.

So the most probable way for Holmes to meet Jigsaw is that he is tracking down the disappearance of one of Jigsaw's victims. In this scenario, Jigsaw will have no idea who Holmes is before he finds himself staring up the barrel of Watson's .455 Webley service revolver, as Holmes explains, with clinical detachment, how he unravelled Jigsaw's schemes.

(to wormpaul) Holmes will have thought twice about the necessity of killing Jigsaw, but he will have finished thinking and decided, by the time he asks Watson to bring his gun. Watson has never written how he felt about the possibility of gunplay, but he was in the army, has been shot himself, and never asked Holmes if he thought it was really necessary to bring the gun.

Hmm, you have a big point there. I remember in the first Saw movie what happened to the guy who was tracking down Saw (Danny Glover) though. He never did see Saw, he was killed by someone Saw was manipulating. But Danny Glover was already mad at his partners death at the hands of Saw. (6 shotguns, if I remember right, can give a bad headache). So that made Glover too into it. Holmes, if Watson stays intact, would probably be able to track down Saw without incident. the only hard part is that Jigsaws real identity is a (supposedly) comatose man with leukemia or some cancer or something. I'm not sure if Holmes would consider him a suspect when found. And Jigsaw picks people and does these things to them to show them how precious the gift of life is, so you're right thats another reason he wouldn't have any reason to pick holmes, as holmes has never taken life for granted as I can see.

Ive never seen Saw, or read a Sherlocke Holmes book. Damn now i feel depressed... <_< Carry on, just ignore me...

I have never seen Saw either, but heck if I don't vote for Sherlock Holmes. I also agree with rlbell's points about Holmes.

It was to Holmes that the remark "Once you have eliminated the impossible, what is left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth" was first attributed. Holmes has no problem with finding the unlikely suspect, if it was impossible for anyone else. Holmes is likely to know much about faking a comatose state, with all of the blanks in his knowledge filled in by Watson.

However, the most important factor in who beats whom is who writes the tale. If Sir Arthur Conan Doyle came back from the dead to write Sherlock Holmes and the Case of the Comatose Murderer, there are only two possible endings (both written from the view of a surviving Watson): Jigsaw and Holmes destroy each other (Doyle is still annoyed about Holmes' popularity, at the expense of everything else that he wrote), or Holmes has an unalloyed triumph over his canniest foe, to date.

Jigsaw would beat the crap out of Holmes, just because he HAS killed someone in the past. Holmes lacks this, so head be gone in less than 10secs.

Didn't rlbell mention previously that Holmes has killed people, and has done so with his bare hands?

Yep, so if it comes to a hand-to-hand fight, Sherlock would pretty much own Jigsaw.

Well, it rather depends. If Jigsaw really managed do get Sherlock into one of his deadtraps, he'd surely be a goner (depends on the trap, though).

If Sherlock however would manage to confront Jigsaw personally, Jigsaw should just run for his live ;)

If I remember right, Jigsaw sucks in hand to hand..I read that a guy in Saw 2 knocked him into a wall. :P Holmes can bend an iron bar, so I'm sure he can bend an iron jigsaw :bleh:

Holmes da homie

are we going to get a new antoginist / protaginist? whats the time scale before we bring in a new antoginist / protaginist?

I think we should make a semi-poll

Meaning that whomever launches the battle, will edit his or hers post with the votes for and against :)

What do you guys think?

That way it is easier to pick a winner in the end - although in the current one it is pretty easy. Holmes walks away with the victory even before Round 1 has commenced. Simply because Holmes would never allow himself to be trapped (unless that was part of his plan), and would've confronted Jigsaw while he was setting the whole thing up. Just to catch him in the act.

Holmes wins hands down.

Sorry. I was planning on having this topic up every two days. I guess its time to finish this part of it up, so I guess I cna easily announce that Sherlock won hands down, he was voted for at least 5/6th of the topic. :P Now that its time to end this discussion, lets move on to the next round...:sneaky: Saw was hoisted by his petard..:P

WHO WOULD WIN: THE SHADOW VS THE JOKER (Mark Hamill's Joker, not the old sucky 1960s one)

Let the debate begin...:P

I vote for The Joker this time, but it's a hard fact whether The Shadow would win the day with his shadowness. I know Shadow might have the ability to freak Joker out with his scary laugh, know knows, wait, the shadow does. =D
Joker: 4
The Shadow.:0

EDIT: I can change the protagonists if anyonee wants me to

The Joker wins this one easily. Not only is he used to dealing with Batman on a regular basis, but he is an evil mastermind with tons of money, lots of neat toys, and no regret.

The Scooby Gang, however, are used to run around screaming like little girls. Besides, this time, it isn't the janitor under the mask. Joker's the real thing, and this will baffle the Scooby Gang, if Daphne ever even get that close to him as to try to rip off his mask. Then Joker will bathe her face in acid from his flower, and use his gas on the rest. Case closed.

Joker won't even shrug.


Edit:
You silly man, changing the combatants.

joker wins. smackdown stylee. hes got the look, the toys. and most importantly the goons! jokers got some kind of cult always willing to take part in his nefarios schemes.

dont mess with the clown!

Pfft...Joker by far...
I think a closer match would be Rorscach vs the Joker...bwhaha.

The main problem with the Joker versus anybody BUT Batman is that the Joker has usually built up his scheme on the premise of staging a confrontation with Batman, so any tale involving the Joker and any other protagonist, must also include Batman, or it is not being true to Joker's motivations. The implication made in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns is that the Joker languished in Arkham Asylum for years, until Bruce Wayne put the cowl back on. The Shadow is unlikely to stumble onto one of the Joker's plans, as the Joker is very low key, and well into the background, before Batman is also on the case.

The same goes for Rorshach versus The Joker. Of course, that match up is doomed because it is not a hero versus a villian, but two villians. Rorshach is a psychopathic, serial murderer with a very peculiar victim of choice-- murderers, rapists, and crimelords. A more fitting match up is Batman versus Rorshach. It has the interesting potential of Batman trying to differentiate himself from the man he is pursuing, as the only significant difference between Batman and Rorshach is that Batman will not kill.

I'll consider that combo for the next debate. :ok: Looking on it realistically, you're right, the Joker wouldn't actually fight anyone but Batman, unless the Shadow was working with Batman. I could see it happening too, especially since DC owns The Shadow. :P But if the Joker had to confront the Shadow, hoiw would he fare? I'm not too sure he would fare well. The Shadow uses madness as a technique, including his high pitched laugh and the ability to hurt people while being a shadow, and it'd be hard for Joker to pick one shadow from another, so realistically, unless the joker has 20/20 vision, I'm not sure he could beat the Shdaow, yet if he were able to bring shadow out of the shadow form, then I think Joker would stand a considerably better chance of beating him. Until he saw the Shadows freaky face. :twisted:

The main problem with the Joker versus anybody BUT Batman is that the Joker has usually built up his scheme on the premise of staging a confrontation with Batman, so any tale involving the Joker and any other protagonist, must also include Batman, or it is not being true to Joker's motivations. The implication made in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns is that the Joker languished in Arkham Asylum for years, until Bruce Wayne put the cowl back on. The Shadow is unlikely to stumble onto one of the Joker's plans, as the Joker is very low key, and well into the background, before Batman is also on the case.

The same goes for Rorshach versus The Joker. Of course, that match up is doomed because it is not a hero versus a villian, but two villians. Rorshach is a psychopathic, serial murderer with a very peculiar victim of choice-- murderers, rapists, and crimelords. A more fitting match up is Batman versus Rorshach. It has the interesting potential of Batman trying to differentiate himself from the man he is pursuing, as the only significant difference between Batman and Rorshach is that Batman will not kill. [/b][/quote]
Nice to know somebody reads Alan moore :)

Well, I'd like to announce that the Joker won, by a mile. :P So I'm gonna go ahead and start the new debate....


Today we'll debate if..

WHO WOULD OUTWIT WHOM: The Griffin family VS. Mom


Begin the debate... :ok:

Griffin family:0
Mom:0

whos mom?

Fascinating omg, maybe you didn't notice the link that lead to a WHOLE WIKI PAGE ABOUT HER.

its late. i have spent the weekend building a garage wall and moving loads of furniture
vision blurred..

no need to shout man...

i care not. the griffins take all because nothing ever effects them. somehow they always blunder through anything. nuclear war doesnt evn effect them. they are basically invunerable.

Stewie ftw.