Russo-Georgian War
 

Russia and the Republic of Georgia are at it again! Yesterday the Russians were using artillary and Rockets to hit key point in the Georgians lines (or so they think) and now the tanks are rolling in.

Gosh, you'd think someone would say something about this, well lets document the operation, or "War"

1 Day long

haha....Hmm Georgia won't stand a chance

At times like these it seems like the cold war didn't ever end, as reports filter through about the Georgian president being a US/NATO stooge, the Russian federation seeding the breakaway regions with russian citizens and paying local mobs and gangs to drive out georgian citizens from the regions.

There is a huge oil or natural gas pipeline running through Georgia, but I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything...

And of course Russia sites Kosovo as precedent for its actions (it was considered the peacekeeping force in the region... which seems a little odd to me) although in this case it seems like the breakaway regions are being steered towards rejoining the russian federation.

Why cant the larger nations stop meddling in the affairs of smaller nations... it causes so many problems for the innocent civilian populations.

Yea, I think the UN should step in. Instead of being mad about higher oil prices or something, they should be watching thing like how Russia and Georgia are going to war?

Like how did everything spark up so fast? Shouldn't the UN have seen this? I mean if the russians could invade Georgia at a moments notice, that obviously meant they had a large and ready military presence in the area, perhaps ready to act at a moments notice

If this is the case, it would have obviously meant that the relations between Russia and Georgia was already hair-line. Either way this isn't very good

Maybe Russias just doing it for the oil in the region?

As far as I'm aware, the russians were acting as peacekeepers in the region (south ossetia) although this is obviously a huge mistake as they aren't impartial, as georgia used to be part of the USSR.

Russia had tanks and jet planes in north ossetia, as part of their large standing army in the general area.

I think South ossetia has attempted independance since the mid-90s, and the recent escalation has taken a couple of months.

Its the only pipeline that can serve the EU from asia which doesn't go through russia, so I'd imagine they'd want tighter control on that, although it may go through russian allied territories anyway (e.g. kazakhstan).

Essentially its all f*cked up. Hopefully it will be sorted out soon, with as little bloodshed as possible, I don't want a larger war when NATO is so stretched already...

It's getting almost no coverage here in America. The only news station that seems to mention it is Fox.

Yea, here in Canada I've only seen a Montreal new network broadcast it so far, which sucks, I wanna watch this

I guess I'll have to turn to Youtube

Well the Georgians called for this, really. Aside of being insolent and scurrilous towards every nation around them including Russia they were looking towards Osetya already since a long time. A small part of Osetya is a disputed area, which Georgia always tried to lay a claim on though Osetya never gave in. As it seems, now Georgia got fed up with trying to enlarge it's territory passively and went over to barbaric methods.
As for Russia, I'm not sure why they intervene but I would say it's to side with Osetya which would be understandable, however they only blow this small war even more up. They might be able to suppress the war quickly, but it would be on cost of a huge number of dead. They oil pipe might play a role there too, but seeing as the oil supply around the world seems to wane rapidly that's to be expected.

Turn Of Russia.

Rifleman moves to Moscow.
Tank moves to Georgia.

<END TURN

Turn Of Georgia.
Phalanx attacks Tank.
Phalanx wins.
Phalanx is promoted.

(civilization)

They should dodge it like the male soldiers are doing.

Heres a couple of links which should get you all the details...

BBC

Guardian

lol all the links you posted are western oriented. to get real scope on the conflict you also need to read from different point of view... i never trusted bbc, they post news with "accent", making some side look worse

you can bablefish this page, it has the most detailed events in exact hours and minutes http://lenta.ru/articles/2008/08/10/ossetia/

I trust that most people will do as I do, and go from those links to the various viewpoints expressed in the nearby web-pages, the guardian in particular has a series of comment pieces from both sides, giving anyone a fair impression if you read them all.

The summary in my view is both Russia and Georgia are at fault, as are the EU/US for meddling. But that could be said of so many other conflicts, its easy to get weary of it all, and I wish that such war-mad people would just find somewhere they can fight away from all the rest of us.

And I'd say the western influence doesnt matter much in this instance, as far as I'm aware the UK and UK media had near-zero involvement until this recent conflict.

Day 3 of War

I found that 2 Russian jets have apparently beeen shot down. the a $700,000,000 mistake

I've been watchign CNN, it's been giving me some good coverage

Remember kids, don't trust the game when you deploy aircraft. Use waypoints next time.

Did the pilots survive?

Funny how the USA is expressing how the sovereignity fo Georgia must be protected. But they were all for action in Serbia's case as well as in the last Iraq adventure. So all Russia has to do now is to say that they have evidence that Georgia has WMD and that they have solid proof for it. then they can show some blurry images and some satelite images of fertilizer factory. they than have all legitimacy (at least according to US-Bush argument) to invade the whole country and make it "democratic". In fact i don't even knwo why they are suddenly concerned about the civilians while their adventure cost over 50.000 dead in Iraq. not to mention over 5000 of US soldier were killed as well.

Why trust Georgians per se? afterall Stalin was from Gerogia and he prooved he was willing to comit crimes against humanity.

Criminals aren't defined by nationality.
Georgia is just able to succesfully suck up, just as Ukraina does / did to get into the European Union.

Yes, your logic is flawless. That is why I don't trust any Cambodians, Rwandans, Austrians, Germans, Bosnians, Japanese, Chinese, Iraqis, anyone from Sierra Leone, and those damned Dutch.

:rolleyes:

And the Scandinavians...Dont forget those acursed Scandinavians...

Kugar I think your playing to much Command and Conqour :p

Apparently a Georgian Radar site was destroyed today, or something like that

HEY!?

:P

The news here mentioned Georgia tried to get through on the phone to Kremlin, asking for peace. Dunno how that went, but I suppose it depends on Georgie trusting the foreign operator, and that Russia doesn't think it's a prank call.

They really ought to find a nice, open landscape, AUs away from any living organism, and do a Major Kong on themselves, the whole bloody lot of them.

As for who to trust? Hell, even the smurfs are making life hell for a lot of people.

Georgia seemed to be counting on NATO backing, which they only got vocally, rather than the military movement that could have allowed their attacks on S.Ossetia. Mind you, the US have apparently air-lifted the Georgian troops in Iraq back home. Thats the sort of support you get when you name streets after G.W.Bush.

On the cease-fire angle, the Georgians have been trying all day, with little success, as Russian troops and tanks are now moving into Georgia proper, from both S.O. and another break-away province in the north-west (Abkhazia).

If the two provinces wanted to be in full autonomous control of their own territory, as in Kosovo or Montenegro, I could understand. However, it seems to me that they want to be part of the Russian Federation, which must make Russia think, why just annex two small parts of Georgia, when we could take the whole thing, and have a major gas pipeline to boot!

Another interesting factoid: the 2014 Winter Olympics will be hosted in Sochi, Russia, which is only a relatively short distance up the coast from Abkhazia. Lets hope its all sorted before then, for the skiiers sake!

Hell, I smell a conspiracy! 2014 is, by coincidence (?), also the year Microsoft will stop supporting XP! Say no more, say no more... Just casually mentioning the referees' computers will have to rely on Vista...

what do you expect, USA sending their aircraft to the georgia and start bombing the russians, making a WW3?

You can never be sure today, despite all technological and social "progress" we supposedly made the world is still as barbaric as it was during the time of Ghenghis-Khan when it comes down to arguments between nations.
Fortunately the international relations are quite good right now so there aren't going to be nuclear rockets flying towards two parts of the world as people were afraid in the 70s and 80s.

I've always liked the Einstein quote, which I will probably mangle here...

"I don't know with what weapons world war three will be fought, but world war four will be fought with sticks and stones"

Fills you with a warm fuzzy feeling of hope? eh?

But more realistically, I would hope that when it came down to it, noone would want to push the button, unfortunately they now are developing small-yeild "tactical" nukes... be afraid.

Man kind is so stupid and evil, all the politicians go to school to study political science for 15 years only to make mistakes, when someone who doesn't have any knowledge of politics at all can walk in and only have the people in mand, and try and make things good for them

If we ever get a politician like that, I shall smile

Those who see the mistakes of the politicians are usually not keen to become one themselves, simply because they have the wisdom the politicians with their intrigues lack. You don't really become politician to improve the world, you become politician because of good pay and influence.

which is exactly my point. BBC has it nicelly written - it appears both sides are to blame.

On this note it was Georgia who first used disproportionate force.

an i still don't understand why they don't let the south osethia out of the country. they didn't control it for 16 years now. people who live there obviously don't want to be in this country, so why force them to stay in? where is the democratic principle in that? If they want to be out then let them be out.

Ok so let's say Georgia would succeed in capturing the province (which they probably would since they invested so much in military in past years). And the Russia would let them do that. Then what? people living there still wouldn't wan't to be in the country. they would still be involved in various civil disobedience or even worse (terror attacks or guerilla war). Oh and what would be the penalty for the South osethian fighters caught? Death by hanging on nearest tree for treason?

And indeed Sadam Hussein attacked the Kurds that wanted to succeed. So is Bush now saying he had the right to keep and defend his territorial integrity? But didn't they just hang him for that specific reason? Wasnt' that the charge he was facing?
Wasn't Milosevic charged with crimes because he attempted to assert territorial control over Kosovo? Wasn't Belgrade bombed by NATO because he wanted to get Serbias territory under control? Remember how they bombed not only military targets but also Chinese Embassy (this one could have been colateral), TV station (this one was on purpose), bridges across Danoube river (on purpose).

If you get a minute can you link the BBC article please? I'd like to read it :)

Genghis Khan had only basic weapons, yet he killed millions of people.

As long as there are people, there will be wars.

It seems it's over. For now...

Look arround here or related articles:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/...ct/default.stm

I think it was one of those that is about diplomats and their sessions.it also says that Russia was apparently caught by surprise with the move of Georgia (well i believe that is part that also made them angry since they just brokered a ceasefire and few hours later Georgia invaded the South Osethia).

I really don't care who dropped the first bomb, this has gone far beyond any joke now. Just read Russia refuses to even go into cease-fire talks... Looks to me they have made up their minds about Georgia, looks to me their goal is to exploit this opportunity to "include" Georgia as a Russian backyard.

Ok, you play with guns you might get shot, but if what I read is correct, then Russia is going way too heavy on this.

EDIT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7555858.stm

Who knows what's going on... Did they or did they not open up a new front? In war, the first casualty is truth...

but russia is leaving georgian region o_O because they were punished for ossetia

I just made a version of this Civ IV. The conflict is resolved in 398 (yes, I counted it) turns.

I disagree. The two conditions for "permanent" peace treaty seem reasonable to me.

Of ocurse they will also loose the territory. Which they didn't have anyway for the past 16 years. So there shouldn't be much loss fo rthem.

Then there is this to consider...
 

This interesting picture says it all (sound like a spambot, don't I?)

I've been reading Daniel Mendelssohn's "The Lost", about his search for his six family members who died in the Holocaust. And also about the sinking of the Lusitania (same sh*t, different war). The whole concept, along with the picture in yesterday's paper of an old woman covered in blood in what used to be her apartment block, have me utterly depressed.

I have come to the conclusion that all politicians are the antichrist. Especially Kaisers, presidents and Shrubs. They love money, women and killing small children. :mad:

I should go and find some friendly vodka... :notrust:

Amen to that.

HeHe. :amused: .... :) ........ :oh: ...... :( ....... :notrust:

A Dutch cameraman Dead today because of this SHIT!

He was a darn good one too.. Always gave us the Best news we could wish..

...... :mad:



Rest in Peace Stan Storimans... Link

No offense meant, but I really don't care for the media's enormous self-regard. Thousands of Georgians have died--but one cameraman's name is worth so many different big name news media's mention.

They should by all means mention the cameraman--after, say, 300 Georgians, and before the rest. So our image of his worth is accurate: one cameraman, to one Georgian.

Or one Osethian or Abhazian.

BTW BBC has some new pics of Tschkinvali. Town is hundred times more destroyed than Gori or Tbilisi. plenty houses were totally demolished. It appears the numbers of dead there were not such a lie afterall.

after the smoke dissipates we might get a clearer picture on both sides.

It's always the innocent who suffer.
 

Why should they? I'm starting to understand the book of Daniel's trippy "four beasts" dream-sequence... all governments are evil mutant monsters. Too bad the folks from Voltron aren't around to rescue us with their flying robot lions :wacko:

What did all those poor civilians do to get blown up? How is an apartment block "strategic"? Not that I agree with carpet bombing in the first place. (Even in Nazi Germany there must've been *some* innocents, although wrecking the Nazi war machine slowly did win the war.) And more people died in Japan in WW2 from incendiary devices than via the nukes. So their wooden cities became towering infernos, burning millions alive. The mind boggles at such destruction. When will it end? :wondering:

You can't have a war without someone being hurt.

interesting thing that popped into my mind... is Georgia going to divert some of the humanitarian aid towards South Osetia and Abkhazia? i mean since they claim it's their own territory, they should also take care of "their" people. So far for those two regions only the Russians promissed the aid.

Some of the aid Europ sends goes to North-Ossetia.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article....ticle_id=94986

If we would like to make analogy: Serbia - Kosovo and Georgia - Abhasia, then Serbia should support Georgia, to be principled! Or can we expect in near future that Russia will recognize independent Kosovo, and Serbia independent Abhasia :wondering:

It will end when everyone who's against it will stand up, realise we're all humans and thus brothers, unite and all together do something to change the world to the better, instead of sitting home behind a TV and complaining about these evil politicians.
We're all part of this world, but only very few are actively influencing it, with many doing so more for their own benefit than for anything else. As long as that doesn't change, there will be always wars and there will be always victims of those who have the power to produce victims.

We need an alien invasion for that one to happen. :)

Anyway this seems like a good written analysis:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7557915.stm

It seems Georgia's president was warned to show restraint by allies. but he didn't.

Romano - i was thinking exactly the same thing. It might happen that Kosovo will get divided into two. Part of it is now basically independent anyway so it might be recognised even by Serbia some time in the future. Especially if EU plans to spread towards other Balkan states. The other (much darker) option is another war.

So who knows, it might happen... In exchange for extra Russian money, oil, gas etc...

It should have happened sooner or later. Since Saakashvili come to power, it became evident, that our country is being surrounded by USA marionets. First Georgia, then Ukraine. Only fool couldn't see, that USA is increasing hostile attitude towards us. It's a sorry to me, that fat-butted cabinet people can smash countries they like againts each other. I bet people in any country don't want war with anybody. And much pity, that methods, which they use are cynic beyond realization, like this so-called "Russo-Georgian war". They use provocations, rascal attacks without thought about consequenses.
When God call you to answer, you can't say, that you blindly cared your orders without thought of consequenses.
I'm sorry for both Georgia and Osetian people, who became victims of USA mean politics.

The whole world needs to be controlled from one point by a handful of persons in 1984 style. The only way to keep barbaric animals in kennels.

The only way to produce few barbaric animals with absolute power. That wasn't very wise.

It's better that way, that way the rest of the people are turned into peaceful grass eating sheep.

Besides I was sarcastic y'know

Nah, Clint Eastwood just needs to make another Dirty Harry movie. World's going to Hell lately. Iraq, Pakistan, Iran and Lebanon. The old song of Israel and Palestine. Now Russia and Georgia. What's next, Britain and France again?

You forgot Tibet and China.

Seeing today's news, I'll put my money on Pakistan that will be the next country that's going down the drain.
Hopefully I'm wrong.

Pakistan, and many other countries, have problems unseen over here, lets not forget the constant struggle in Kashmir, and the supposed lawless northern territories.

It's very difficult to judge which countries are secure and peaceful, and which have larger problems as they often don't get reported in the mainstream media unless there is a direct relation to your country, or a very large amount of people are dead.

Although Iraq gets very little reporting these days on mainstream TV media, and I have no knowledge now of the numbers of casualties in recent weeks, which could still be very high, but are deemed "old news" by those who run the networks.

Back to the Pakistan guess - I hope your prediction doesn't come true, as they have a significant nuclear capability.

Let's face it, the world these days is pretty volatile. It doesn't help that a lot of countries are fixed on helping so-called 'global warming', which actually just ends up sapping the economy for very little outcome and increases tension in countries which were already hard-up. Which is why most of that area are at each other's throats. To be honest, I think that next will be less Pakistan and more World War III. It might creep up on us more than the last two, but I think that it's coming.

There's more than that coming, if we don't hurry, and that very very fast. The time is almost running up.

in WW3 (unlike in second one) everyone would loose.

Everyone lost in the other two as well - this time, though, well, a good term might be nuclear winter for one possibility.

not really as some countries were actually not directly involved in it at all. such as for example Switzerland, Sweeden or Ireland to name just a few from Europe.

Also plenty of other countries or should i say territories (since some coutries didn't exists on the map before) were not direclty involved in the fighting. maybe they sent some troops but certainily they didn't loose as many people as coutnries directly involved (European, East and SE Asian countries incl. Australia and Oceania + USA)

But we were still ready. Here in New Zealand we did have some coastal guns. In a small town south of Timaru (about 2/3 of the way down the east coast of the south island, find it on a map), the bases of them are still there (the guns themselves are gone, of course).

And you had your army supporting Allies all over the world including here. With highest death ratio per million in Commonwealth. But it was still nothing compared to the number of people slaughtered in the name higher race goals.

And there were still some ocuntries that were neutral or even profiting from the war itself. wheras in a full nuclear war there would hardly be any survivors left.

As much as a nuclear winter is an image of the cold war, I would think it's actually very unlikely to happen, even nuclear bomb usage would be limited, as people would be unlikely to use them in large numbers (hopefully not at all!).

For those areas that are hit, all you need to do is read up about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the bombs that the UK,US, France and Russia have are quite a bit worse than that.

Generally not good really though, despite the exceedingly slim chance of planet-killing megatonnage.

Nuclear weapons would probably not be used anymore in case of a next world war, but to actually trigger a worldwide conflict is easier than many think. As reasons it would be enough if just the petrol that's already getting scarce will become so rare that people would kill for it. And they probably will. Or take the issue of territorial conflicts which the war in Georgia is the most recent example of, and which is slowly getting more frequent everywhere in the world.
Adding to this the increasing with each day indifference of humans towards each other it is more than likely that a global war is not behind the mountains.

Situation is more and more similar to the one in Kosovo.

USA bombs Serbia (all over the place and outside of "conflict zone") forcing them to sing a ceasefire where they withdraw out form Kosovo. As soon as they do that NATO (US) sends in troops. After a couple of years there is a referendum (with many Serbian refugees not included in it). It all ends with a plan from Ahtisari and recognition of Kosovo by only a few states.


If that hadn't happened i wonder if this thing in Georgia would happen? Maybe but the thing is that Russia didn't want to recognise these two regions before. And they warned of unrest in the region if Kosovo was recognised.

What bothers me is that i do not see any questions from journalists and asnwers form the leaders such as Bush if they believe Kosovo is also illegal to be independent? And moreover why NATO still exists after Warshav pact was disbanded ? and when we get that answer we can also maybe ge tthe answer why Georgia should be a part of the organisation at all? to bring peace and stability in the world?

I though it's widely known that NATO is just a lackey of USA. Might be the reason why it's still active. In any case there's more going on in the world than is openly known, and those who have something to hide set a great store to keep it hidden from the publicity too. All the result of desinformation and people living in their small privacy and daily routine, pretending to know nothing and ignoring the fact that the world is going a straight way to hell.

It seems these days that far too many people fit what those would call a stereotype of 'sheep'. They follow the media that fits with their own viewpoint, never bothering to do any research into anything that might upset it. Which, incidentally, is why no-one notices the NATO being used as an 'anonymous' extension of the US and everyone succumbs to the flood of 'global warming' dis-evidence. Society needs to accept that to progress, they must see the wood without the trees and actually notice what goes on around them.

With corporate media in hands of governments or companies that finance their elections i doubt anything like that will happen.

It' smuch easier to point a finger at someone and blame them for everything bad that happened or is going to happen.