This is just a discussion about the drugs.

There's nothing bad in this topic.

No, I've never tried them. And I dont intend to change that soon.

I haven't and I am not going to, ever.
Reasons, apart from health issues, are ideological. Plus, look at what they did to China. Almost ruined the country.

depends on what you take as drugs..I tried only alcohol,so im probably the least drug-experienced 15-year old person around here

Only alcohol for me.

I've been offered cannabis and tobacco (sometimes quite forcibly).

Just say no, kids.

Alcohol, tobacco and pot.

i tried almost everything from a like acid to X like XTC and it harmed my healthy thats for sure.. and sometimes i dealed with the muck but only between friends who had already used drugs.... but that was like 10 years ago..

I've learned my lessons and got enough help to get out of this vicious circle..

This ******* topic follows me from forum to forum. No I haven't and I never won't.

I voted no, cause i don't consider alcool as a drug... well it could be a drug even the chocolate (even if is less dangerous)

Probably I'm not right and i warn all of you to be moderate in alcool drinking ;)

Anyway, winners don't use drugs! And I'm sure that no one really needs them!

@ Plague: you know, drugs are a plague

Not exactly. But their effects are closer than enough to each other.

I've tried pot...

Only alcohol. Not that of a drug.

Never tried drugs (except alcohol), don't intend to try. I don't feel they're usefull for anything.

Exept alcho - nope, and I have drunk alcho only maybe 5 times in my life - don't like it and I don't see any point in taking any drugs.

Presumably you mean illegal drugs? I don't drink heavily but I am a regular cannabis smoker. Occasional cigarettes too, for no good reason, but nothing heavier.

Never touched the stuff (including alcohol).

User, unfortunatly. On and off, haven't touched them for about 4 months... Reefer, Opieds, amphetamines and hallucinogens. Not exactly recreational purposes, mostly just that search for new insights derived from altered states of mind.

drugs are not cool :angel:

Yes.

Other than ol alcohol, haven't touched any other drug and not going to change.

My biological clock of death is already ticking...why would I want to speed it up?

Agreed.

Hugs, not drugs :D

What are drugs? Is alcohol a drug? I'd say it's hypocrite calling marijuana a drug if alcohol isn't...

*maybe finally starts an interesting debate*

I only drink alcohol. And I always thought I'd never try any other drugs and I wish I never did, but I've had one cigarette and one puff from a joint. That's way too much for me. I couldn't even handle the cigarette and it was supposed to be a pretty weak one.

I've tried alcohol, acid, pot, mushrooms and cocaine(blow not crack). Out of all of these, I prefer pot, and think it has the least amout of negative side-effects.
The issue on drugs is a bit of a quagmire, because some people can use and not abuse, while others are prone to addiction. I found all of the "hard drugs" I tried to be highly over rated, and way too expensive to be of any practical use. I guess I'm lucky I never got addicted to any of them. The LSD(acid) was just bizzare, and I really didn't enjoy it at all. The mushrooms made me incredibly sick, and ruined my NY2k. The coke just made me really hyper.Alcohol has a real Dr jeckle effect on me so I have learned to moderate myself to a maximum of 2 drinks an hour tops. This leaves lastly but not leastly, pot, which helped me overcome numerous physical injuries. This drug was really a necessary crutch for me, although, I have seen the effects of cronic use in some of my friends. The whole stepping stone drug thing never sat with me either. It's like saying that watching sports on T.V leads to cronic gambling. Not everyone who watches sports on T.V bets on them, just as not all pot smokers feel the need to escalate towards harder drugs. I know I am absolutely content where I am(which is ironically one of the main issues against pot as it supposedly causes people to be "too" content and strive less.) I think that we have enough guilt bred into our societies.

I drank a bit once but noticed how much of a idiot It made me and then never touched it again.

I once saw an interesting documentray film (someone might remember the title) about American anti-drugs propaganda in the 60s and 70s, and they had a huge campaign involving the slogan "90% of 'H' users started on pot" or words to that effect - the point being to abuse the public's general ignorance of elementary logic; A implies B is very much not the same as B implies A. Surely it's common sense that the people who are likely to try heroin at some point are likely to have had the chance and the inclination to smoke pot before then? Stands to reason.

I had some alchol, but I don't cinsider that a drug,so no, and I don't plan on trying any.

Well I would consider alcohol a drug.

It's an addictive chemical that alters thought patterns and behaviour patterns. It's a drug :P

Yea, Hallucinogens (Shrooms, LSD) lend to some pretty screwed up experiences.

I prefer straight speed to coke though.

I think alcohol is a drug. For some reason it's separated from other drugs...I guess because it's legal :whistle:

EDIT: Well, cigarettes are legal, and people here (in California) can get medicinal marijuana legally, but you get the point :P

The 12 step program was first developed for Alcoholics, how can anyone argue that it is not a drug. Cigarettes are as well. I'd go as far to say that they are both the worst drugs because big business have their little claws dug deep into both, and have an huge marketing strategy dedicated to them. This is why I'm all for de-criminalizing pot, but am hesitant about straigh out legalisation.

It's a well-known, documented logically fallacy known as post hoc ergo propter hoc. Anti-drug propaganda is *dirty word* ridiculous and while I'm not a particularly big fan of any illicit drugs (simply as a matter of personal taste, rather than any sort of moral aversion), the route by which the political right in the US has chosen to conduct their "war on drugs" exudes moral imposition moreso than any sort of rational attempt at social improvement.

Go back to the beginnings of most drug legislation in the U.S. (which has traditionally been the catalyst for anti-drug regulation in the rest of the world) and you'll discover that it's rooted in racism and bigotry. Marijuana was actually criminalized primarily in an attempt to curb poor, illegal Mexican immigrants around the turn of the 20th century. Cocaine was similarly criminalized based upon the propagation of the stereotype that only blacks, beatniks, and criminals used it.

Yes, most laws concerning drug use only have the actual drug use as a small faction of their true interests.

Are you referring to the alcool?

Well, drinking just a glass of wine doesn't alter the behaviour patterns of a medium person... while the illegal drugs do it...


The government propaganda could be illogic and stupid (you know, they are used to the election campaigns...), but (and I'm talking about me) if i were using pot, maybe sometime it could came to me the curiousity to try something "stronger"...

totally depends on what effects you're looking for. Every drug gives one a different feeling, and many people just stick to pot throughout their lives, even though they may experiment.

Are you referring to the alcool?

Well, drinking just a glass of wine doesn't alter the behaviour patterns of a medium person... while the illegal drugs do it...[/b][/quote]
And taking just a couple of puffs from a joint doesn't have a noticeable effect either.
Effects of different doses have nothing to do with whether it's classified as a drug or not. Ethilic alcohol (or ethanol) is an addictive substance. That's why there are alcoholics. It is very much a drug, but it just so happens to be legal.

Just think how many lives has alcohol ruined, how many crimes hapenned while someone was alcoholised, now look at cannabis, it can ruin you if you use it too much, but so can alcohol, but if you use cannabis, you sure won't be doing any crimes under it's effect...
Never got to you that those who used H, started with alcohol, so why is it legal...
The point is that if marijuana were legal you wouldn't be under the influence of drug dealers, and there are believe me so many people who used cannabis at least several time in their life but never touched any of the harder stuff(probably more than those who became real drug addicts, sorry dude but you've been blinded by the propaganda...

On the subject of pot being a "stepping stone" drug, that's way off.
I live in the tropical North Queensland (in Australia, for the less geographically-inclined). In this climate, you can just drop some cannabis seeds on the ground in your backyard and you have a good chance that a plant will grow on its own.
Everone - and i mean everyone I've met in this town has tried pot. 80% of my friends are regular users. Only about 10% of them have ever tried anything else: usually ecstasy once every few months at a rave or something. I only know three people that have tried -at least once- harder drugs: speed, magic mushrooms and coke.

So no. Marijuana is not a step towards hard drugs.

I would say that marijuana is much less dangerous for the society than the alcohol...

Same.

So many yes answers....

I have never tried cigarettes, alcohol or drugs. Im all clean.

I haven't smoked tobacco yet, but I did once have some pot at a party, which was pretty good, but I'm not going to take it up as a hobby.

I drink quite a bit, it's probably not good for my health, but then again nor's continual stress.

Are you referring to the alcool?

Well, drinking just a glass of wine doesn't alter the behaviour patterns of a medium person... while the illegal drugs do it... [/b][/quote]
It's the percentage. Alcohol is a very small part of wine. Drink a glass of Ethanol and you'll be worse off than if you took any drug.

The reason alcohol isn't considered as a drug by most is because of small percentages of alcohol in such beverages. These beverages are seen by many as luxuries and not just a way to "escape reality", therefore it is not seen as a drug.

Ok, I know that if i drink ethanol I should have some problems of addiction... :tai:

You can drink a glass of rhum just because you like how it taste, but if you have problem of alcool addiction or "psycolgical" problems (you know, the world is bad, I've lost my work and my girlfriend left me :cry: ) you will use it like a drug instead of trying to solve your problems... :not_ok:
So alcool could be used like a drug (to alter your feelings) or not!

But how many ones smoke Marjiuana because it "taste good", maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that is smoked to alter the feelings and not so many ones are taking just a couple of puffs from a joint... just to feel nothing! That would be just a big waste of money! :not_ok:

True, but if you want to get your mind "altered" marijuana is much less dangerous and that's what I'm trying to say all the time...
Also cigarretes can't really be enjoyed and they create addiction, and are a source of many health problems...
I'm just saying if those are legal why marijuana shouldn't be?(there's also gambling and other vices)...

So we agree, because alcohol beverages aren't always used as a way to "escape" it's not really seen as a drug, when in fact it is. If alcohol was only used to "escape" than it would be considered a drug and probably be illegal.

You know, just because one substance that harms you is legal, that isn't the best way to claim/ask for another one to be legal because the frst one is.
Alcohol is bad for you, very bad for you, every time you drink even small amounts of alcohol, millions of brain cells die or get damaged and never ever return. Alcohol if it was invented today, it would be classified as a class A drug, together with cocaine etc.
I had never thought much about alcohol abuse till I came to this country (UK). If you have lived outside this country and suddently come here you will easily see that a large part of the population is in simple terms, alcoholics. This is not against the british people (I like them very much), but for me a simple fact. The problem (at least here) is huge. People that during the day are fine, planning and thinking all day about going out, not to just have fun, not to see anyone, but simply (their words) to get drunk. If you do not get drunk then it wasn't a good night. I am afraid that alcohol is having similar effects to what opium did to parts of China in the "recent" past. (Read opium wars). Only this time it is not another country that is doing the damage but the country on its own.
And of course if you talk openly about it then people will call you all sort of things starting with anti british.

Having said all the above, and keeping in mind that I am 100% against drugs, I am also in favour of legalizing ALL currently illegal drugs, and letting people free to try and use whatever they want. With some changes in laws, so that none can sue anyone for damage to themselves due to the drug, including death, no health support if they get sick due to use of a drug, so if one overdose or anything, then he/she should be let to die, unless there is a either volunteer or private business that is set to help them. There could be a detox plan funded part by government and part by the users, but the addicts that want to take part in it should be forced to stay in a compount for the duration of it.
Of course if you don't want to stop using them, feel free to do so, the government or anyone else should not be a guardian or big brother to stop you damaging yourself.

Ok, we agree (in some ways)

The only thing i want to add, is that marjiuana is less dangerous for the body (and that's sure) but it could get who uses it accostumed to have an easy way to forget the life problems... it seems to me dangerous enough for the mind, even if you doesn't become addicted...

Obviously it occur even with alcool... but I hope alcool will not become illegal... I like sometime a bit of fine rhum...

But even making sports you get millions cells (even brain cells) damaged :bleh: (I'm joking)

Efthimios, people get those reactions from people who spike their drinks without them knowing, they did not agree to it, and you think they should just be left to die?

Actually, I like his solution. Let the population weed itself out.

Hmm the population isn't really weeding itself out, it's more that some people are weeding it out. Unless you had government-funded drink spikers (a top-class conspiracy methinks) destroying the weak then it's of little social use.

Naw man, just let the addicts burn themselves out. Don't help 'em out, if they want to change, it's of their own accord. If not, maybe they'll die and save us the trouble of trying to help.

Now here's an attitude of a true midgit, or just a giant git...

EDIT:
I do apologise if this post seems offensive to people (especially to those of shorter stature). I simply wanted to provoke TheGiantMidgit with it (on the basis of his nickname). He was stating his opinion that a certain group of people should be weeded out, so I wanted to show him (on an example of a different group how wrong his opinion is). The choice of the group depended purely on his nickname, not intending to be offensive to any group of people.

Good thinking, I hope that you'll have a good friend who is a drug addict and then we'll see...(No I don't have friends who are drug addicts, but there many people who have)

I do, and maybe it'll convince them to quit.

As for Sebastio's comment thing, hey, leave the midgits out of this.

Hey, anyone who's stupid enough to get HIV deserves it, so we should let them die, right? Efthimios, your post doesn't add up - there is a high rate of alcohol abuse in the UK, higher than in the rest of Western Europe (we also smoke more cigarettes than most), but you're in favour of legalising drugs and then letting everyone just deal with it themselves? That seems entirely stupid to me. It's been well demonstrated that rehabilitation and treatment is far more effective and cheaper (by a long way) than prison terms for drug offenders, yet Western governments (particularly here and in the US) choose to ignore this because they think (and they might be right) that to do otherwise will lose them votes.

@TGM: Oh, so you may have a weak-spot after all... Why should I leave them out? If you can treat one group of people as scum why should I treat another the same way?

Odd how I'd treat my own group as scum. I'm a speed freak, that's an addiction. When you get to know the drug culture, you'll realize that alot of times these guys are beyond outside help. Well beyond. It's something alot of us had to do for ourselves, rather than turn to the gov'nment for help, because we are the end all be all in our own treatment. The point of the idea isn't to just let people die, it's to give them incentive to quit on their own merits. Next time, give it some thought. I always have a reason for stating an opinion.

...and you guys seem to get the impression that I'm vertically challenged or something. I just like oxymorons. Not a hard concept to grasp.

So, a speed freek?
Hating yourself for it? Feeling angry towards people who put you up to try it in the first place?

Weeding junkies out isn't the way - weeding anybody out is never the way. Taking any kind of a drug is just a form of escape (unles it was forcefully fed to you).

The best policy (as always) is prevention. Stop people from taking the stuff in the first place. Junkies ending up dead is obviously not effective way of preventing peopl efrom doing drugs.
The main problem lays within the society, that's why it's the society that needs to solve the problem (the entire society).
How did people get rid of the plague epidemics? By letting all the plague infected people eto die? By hunting witches who brought the curse upon them? Didn't help any. They were only really succesful when they started upholding their hygiene.

It's the same thing here. As long as the people won't root out the main reason yought starts taking drugs, there will be no success.

Gld you put up an actual opinion rather than just attacking me for mine. And yours is pretty solid, but I'm 'fraid I gotta stick with mine, it's the only solution I can derive from experience. ...that, and I tend to dislike people in general. Weird, had this conversation with a few people last night at a party even... I dislike whole populations, but have no problem with individuals, so basically whatever tends to get rid of people en mass is okay with me, but I'm not the type of person who'd initiate something like that. Pretty passive about the whole thing, actually.

People start taking drugs because depression leads them into it. My best friend, Kerry, starting doing acid a couple of years ago because of it. Hell, I once took pot because of it.

Yea, that's a huge initiator. A short term physical release for an emotional problem. It's what drove me to it, anyhow, although I did start pot recreationally around grade 6 or 7...

Depression? Not really.

It's not being able to deal with depresion.

Everybody gets depresed, but in the society of today most people just wish to get everything quickly. Get an answer quickly (not having to work/look hard for it), get some fun/kicks quickly. Get cheered up again in an instant...

that's the real problem. People have the feeling like the good things in their life have to come at once and have to last and if they don't they are depresed. That's just wrong. And because everything should happen in a moment and should probably involve as little efford as possible - people take little pills making them happy and peacefully numb for a while.

People (in general) need to lear to take more time. Everything is a proces, nothing can just happen or fall in your lap. But people expect it to. And that's destroying whole societies and it will be the downfall of the western civilization if it doesn't change soon (and not just because of drugs).

Depression is just one incentive, and it's not even "the big one". If the drug is readily available and you know several people who do it, your incentive is curiosity. Or peer pressure.
The first time I tried pot, it was on my birthday, when a mate brought some over to "initiate" me. Taught me how to build and use a bong, and how to roll a joint.
I was very happy that day. I tried pot because I think it's a good idea to experience as many different things in life as you can. That being said: no, I don't ever plan on a heroin injection.

Why do people spike their drinks? By legalizing the drugs (all of them) there would be no need to spike anyone's drink. Unless they hate you or something, or of course they want to rape you or steal your money.

Well, it can feel stupid to you, but I stick to it.
I never said anything about putting anyone in prison, did I?
Quite the opposite. Set them free, but do not help them when they are in trouble, do not help them with homelessness caused by them, or when they lose their jobs or when they destroy their families. Only help those that want to be helped, with the way I mentioned earlier.

HIV is not the same thing as drug addiction.
You can get infected with HIV even without doing anything wrong/"wrong". Several cases where people got infected by blood transfusion (sp? I hate that word), or when someone tried to help someone who was bleeding and got infected by accident etc. Also, broken condoms and many other.
Nothing like drug addiction at all.


How is rehabilitation and treatment working? Every year we have (not just the UK) more and more drug addicts and alcoholics. How are the above working? We end up supporting with lots of money people who do not want to stop their abuse and at the same time helping promoting criminals and "black" money. I have met plenty of people that were/are drug addicts (including alcohol) and they were once saying (when confronted with care workers) that they want to quit blah blah blah, but only because they didn't want to go to jail or they wanted money from the government.

About depression as a cause to someone getting drugs.
Tough luck.
Most of us having at some point in our lives, lots and very serious problems. We are not looking for the easy quick way out of feeling bad, we try to find a solution. People who just go to drugs to avoid life are nothing but cowards and I have zero sympathy for. Same thing for those that kill themselves for the above reasons. Hey, if the rest of us are sticking with this shitty life, where the fudge do you think you are going? No, stay here and fight damn it. But if you want to "escape" then go ahead, use any drugs you want, just don't expect any sympathy or help when you are ready to die.

Right on!

Ouch!

Alcohol, pot, both coke and crack, ecstasy, mushrooms, K and acids. Not addicted to any, you have to know how much you can take up. That's the reason I'll never try heroin, even though other opium forms didn't bring that much damage, I try to avoid them.

I'd say both speed and LSD are the best, for their effects. LSD can give very nice trips, and the egocentric, careless, libido raiser of speed is still one of the best things to feel. Though, as a hardcore vodka fan, I restrict myself to pot most of the time, since vodka + speed = bad combo.


And of course, pot is much cheaper, I wouldn't be able to afford speed as much as I do pot nowadays.


Been there. It sucks, and it can bring actual problems, mainly because some drugs will leave you even more depressed.

Drugs aren't supposed to be a way out. They're supposed to be taken for fun. It's a high risk fun indeed, but it's something that you wouldn't be able to have "normally". I wouldn't incite or make anyone use drugs ever, but it's an experience as many other things are, and it can be a good experience if you're responsible and you know what it can do.

Seb is making a lot of sense. Drugs are kind of a sensitive thing for me, I've seen it destroy a lot of people close to me, or in the process of doing so. I've heard people like efthismios try to reason with legalizing all drugs. That may seem like it makes sense, but I think it would lead to a lot more bad than good. Crime rates would go up, people getting affected even though they don't have anything to do with drugs, and bad health issues. Even though people are using legal drugs, they still get pretty messed up physically, and they would expect some medical care if they needed it.
Then medical care would be affected.
And a big chain from there.

Anyway, I don't support drugs, even the legal ones (which includes alcohol) but I can't resent those who do.

I have not used, nor plan to use, drugs or alcohol. Hell, I don't even use medication for pain or injury...

However, I have seen way too many people on the effects of all of these. People on acid thinking thier TV is a black hole. Guy on pot that fell on a lemon tree and had to get a thorn removed from his eye. Countless alcohol related accidents. About ethanol, why don't they replace it with straight wood alcohol? Really weed out them alcohol morons... Also, the legalization of Marijuana will not cause crime rates to increase. No one will steal pot, you can grow it in your yard. This will cause something else though, the availibility of jobs to shift. People smoking pot all day will likely not go to work, and thus get fired. But since they can grow pot legally, they don't care so much about work. This will put a slight increase on demand for work, and lower the standards some. This should alleviate some of the crime. However, hopefully the kleptomaniacs and the people who steal because its fun (not because they desire the means to feed the family/ want to get something special types) will be too potheaded to do this anymore. Of course, this is general speculation...

Most powerful reason for anyone to use drugs: Stupidity.
Stupid with power, or weakness. Too weak to control themselves, or prevent themselves from using it. Too much money to think there isn't a good reason not to.
Stupid to let thier nimwit friends talk them into it.
Stupid, to think it will help thier "Social Graces".
Stupid, to think it will ease thier Depression.
Stupid, because they thought the party would like them more.
Stupid, because the drunk chick/guy at that party talked them into it.


Its stupid because it harms your judgement and talent, in a sickening way that will end up permanent without some form of rehab. It harms your appearance, and general performance in school and physical effort. Its Cancerous. Smoking can cause you to be shorter than average. Cigarettes will make you broke, guaranteed. It kills braincells.

Of course, your own feces in your body is cancerous. Running can kill braincells.

Never tried drugs, and probably never will.

I actually hadn't tried alcohol before the day I turned 18. Not that I'd be so extremely law-abiding in every small thing I do, the thought just felt stupid. I've seen more than my share of groups of preteens running around too drunk to stay on their feet every Friday and Saturday night.

I wasn't afraid I would be like that if I'd start. I was pretty sure I could keep in reasonable amounts etc, but it was more of a passive statement against all those stupid teens.

As I didn't have anything against reasonable use of alcohol generally, I ended my silent "protest" the day I turned 18.

I do know people who use drugs, though. Mainly just pot. I don't have any tragic stories to tell about them (fortunately), but I still have seen them change. Almost every one of my friends who use/have used drugs actively have become much more passive. They keep to themselves much more now, and they don't tend to care about "little stuff" anymore. Most of my drug-taking friends have changed the same way, so it can't be just a coincidence.

That's why I won't touch any of that stuff.

Nice slogan :D

i smoke weed so much that my brain think for it self.

:angel:

Stupid for trying to get out of depression with drugs? Pot cheered me up the time I tried it, alcohol does nearly every day (which is how often I drink it).

Gotta try something...

The problem is when I drank once. I tripped down the stairs and told people merry christmas when they wanted candy on holloween. And I could barely talk and was studdering.

Was not a good experience at all

You have to realize that emotions are subjective. Everyone has their own level of coping capacity, and by expecting everyone to instinctually function at the optimum level you are just being plainly unreasonable.
I'm not sure who ingrained into you your coping skills, or if in fact you were born with them, but not everyone has that liberty. To use myself as an example, I grew up watching my parents hide from their problems through drugs. Even though I could recognize the fallacy of this meathod, when I hit rock bottom I knew of no other example, and fell right into drugs. The drugs certainly filled a void, although temperarily. Would you condem a child, when not knowing any other route, for doing the only thing that felt natural?
This callus ideology of individualism really sickens me, and forgive me for jumping to conclusions, but I bet you have not delt with this subject personally, and are just writting paper theories here. This is not bad cause at least you are openly thinking.

humanity has been getting high for as long as there has been humanity.
drug laws are a pretty modern idea, there was a time you could get cougth syrup with morphine in it.
i wouldent mind if it was all legalized. just with some minor exceptions.
crack - no way, keep that illegal
acid - make people pass a psych eval before they do it.
heroin - is just concentrated opium at the end of the day, why not just let em have a nice clean opium.
ketamine - 2 high a chance of brain damage after doing that. keep it banned.

legalise evrything else tho and there are massive benifits

1: the people doing mdma will be doing real mdma rather than stuff with ground glass put in it, or strychnine or speed and acid mixes whatever, will be good for the health of the 1 million per weekend people the goverment knows are doing pills (i reckon its probably more than that)
2: the tax money raised will pay for loooads of stuff for the country could completely revamp the nhs ect
3: wouldent have to deal with gangsters to get high
4: i think if when u r depressed you have the choice between going out and buying some clean mdma rather than a bottle of whiskey , that would definatly be cool.

when it comes to having a problem with people i have a lot less time for rowdy boozzers than i do dopeheads. alchahol is responsible for the centers of evry town and city in this bloody country being filled with crazed monkeys evry bloody weekend. and speed freaks can get pretty nasty but people on booze do some keerazzy things when they get drunk and booze is freely available.

That's wrong. From the little research that has been done, it's been found that weed contains several times the amount of tar that tobacco does when smoked and that it burns at higher temperatures (which is a major factor in the toxins and carcinogens contained in the smoke). Saying that it's "safer" is an easy out and excuse for the pro-weed groups to exploit the lack of solid research that has been done.


Salvia makes LSD look like caffeine, and it's legal. Either way, they can both really mess with your head.

Quote:

Originally posted by blastradius14@ People smoking pot all day will likely not go to work, and thus get fired. But since they can grow pot legally, they don't care so much about work. This will put a slight increase on demand for work, and lower the standards some. This should alleviate some of the crime...Of course, this is general speculation...

Complete speculation and complete garbage. The idea that weed instantly makes someone so apathetic as to be useless is retarded. I know plenty of people who have absolutely no problem smoking and then going right to work. You go on to make a bunch of broad generalizations about why everyone uses drugs when you, in fact, have not. As I said before, I don't use -- nor have I ever -- anything stronger than alcohol, but that doesn't inhibit me from observing plenty of people around me who are perfectly capable of using drugs simply as a recreational thing. Same idea as sports or any other hobby for those people: it's something that they enjoy doing without it taking over the rest of their life.

<!--QuoteBegin-efthimios
Alcohol if it was invented today, it would be classified as a class A drug, together with cocaine etc. [/quote]
No it wouldn't. Here in the US they tried banning alcohol once and it's fairly well-known how that turned out. Alcohol has been a part of the universal human culture for centuries and the vast majority of people are able to use it without becoming alcoholic.

The UK drug laws are quite vague and are little more than sentencing guidelines. Cocaine and alcohol both, however, have redeeming medical uses which is why they would never completely disappear just as Class A drugs like hydrocodone haven't. Hell, cocaine is actually Schedule II drug in the US (whereas weed is Schedule I) and is available in certain licensed pharmacies (it's used as a topical anaesthetic by dentists, for example).

Crack is essentially freebase cocaine and, as I discussed earlier, cocaine has legitimate medical uses.

Ketamine is Schedule III and a very effective anaesthetic (at least the S enantiomer is, and my limited knowledge of organic chemistry isn't enough that I know if it's possible or not to purify the racemic mixture of S and R ketamin). It's not banned now and it shouldn't be.

Correct. I know several of my dad's workmates not only smoke weed and go to work, but because they have to start work at 7am, they use their 9am ten-minute break to smoke a joint then go back to work. According to dad, they're grouchy and easily irritated early in the morning, but after they've had their joint, they're happy, dynamic, active workers for the rest of the day.

i dont know what country you are from but in england ketamine is used to tranqulise horses and kill domestic pets. we use other things for sedation as humans in the 50s who were sedated by it would wake up with memories of lucid dreams some nice some very nasty (kmares) and k heads lose it big style. proper big style.

Salvia makes LSD look like caffeine, and it's legal. Either way, they can both really mess with your head. [/b][/quote]
That's one I had the opportunity to try and never did, thanks to stories I've heard about it. I've had bad hallucinogen trips, and Salvia would be the last thing I'd want a bad trip on. Ever.


Also, if anyones interested, go look up anything you want on http://www.erowid.com/ before you do it, really helps you get into the right mindset by giving you an idea of what to expect.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that what I said implied that it wasn't used for animals, but you essentially reinforced what I said in that regard (that it's effective and widely used). The side effects you mentioned are a result of R enantiomer interaction, which I specifically noted. In any event, all medications have side-effects and those have to be factored into the decision to use them or not. You seem to be arguing that ketamine should be outlawed simply on the premise that some people experience adverse side-effects, which is a conclusion that isn't the place of anyone -- including myself -- but a qualified doctor to make.

<!--QuoteBegin-TheGiantMidgit
That's one I had the opportunity to try and never did, thanks to stories I've heard about it.[/quote]
Speaking as someone who has seen it used more than a few times, I can tell you that it is the single most powerful drug I know of (it dwarfs the effects of LSD) and it can have really powerful effects on someone's head. However, it's doesn't necessarily have negative results but can result in some really bad trips (just like LSD). It's also the drug I am the most scared of.

LSD alters your perception of what's around you ("the colors!") and how you think of things, but salvia creates a completely new reality for the user. I watched someone use who, after it was over, wasn't sure what was real for weeks.

Yea, I've heard. I mean, LSD and Shrooms gave me a bad trip or two, so I wouldn't want to do it on Salvia. That would just be way too risky towards my sanity. Even thinking back into those trips gives me a little flashback action. Bleh.

Oh it happens to me every weekend. I tried to tackle a pole becuase it insulted my tree friends.

After a round of drinks me and my friend had the best time of our lives.

You see, his phone had the intro to "Back In Black" in ringtone, and we would run up to people, stare them right in the face, shove the phone into their dazed expressions, then start playing the song.

Of course, we don't need alcohol to do that, so I can safely say I never really indulge in it too much, as I'm already too spastic and unstable along with my friends.

That maybe true, but I doubt that even regular users are gonna smoke 3-4 joints a day, while there are many cigarete users smoke even 30+ cigaretes a day...
And he was making comparation with alcohol, not cigaretes...

Speaking as someone who has seen it used more than a few times, I can tell you that it is the single most powerful drug I know of (it dwarfs the effects of LSD) and it can have really powerful effects on someone's head. However, it's doesn't necessarily have negative results but can result in some really bad trips (just like LSD). It's also the drug I am the most scared of.

LSD alters your perception of what's around you ("the colors!") and how you think of things, but salvia creates a completely new reality for the user. I watched someone use who, after it was over, wasn't sure what was real for weeks. [/b][/quote]
From what I have been told (previous users and experts on handling drug addiction), when you use LSD, what you experience is very much depending on the person and his/her mindset, both at the time and in general. Thus, LSD can become either a "funky" experience or the most horrifying. That goes far beyond seeing colours.

That's wrong. From the little research that has been done, it's been found that weed contains several times the amount of tar that tobacco does when smoked and that it burns at higher temperatures (which is a major factor in the toxins and carcinogens contained in the smoke). Saying that it's "safer" is an easy out and excuse for the pro-weed groups to exploit the lack of solid research that has been done.


Salvia makes LSD look like caffeine, and it's legal. Either way, they can both really mess with your head.

Quote:

Originally posted by blastradius14@ People smoking pot all day will likely not go to work, and thus get fired. But since they can grow pot legally, they don't care so much about work. This will put a slight increase on demand for work, and lower the standards some. This should alleviate some of the crime...Of course, this is general speculation...

Complete speculation and complete garbage. The idea that weed instantly makes someone so apathetic as to be useless is retarded. I know plenty of people who have absolutely no problem smoking and then going right to work. You go on to make a bunch of broad generalizations about why everyone uses drugs when you, in fact, have not. As I said before, I don't use -- nor have I ever -- anything stronger than alcohol, but that doesn't inhibit me from observing plenty of people around me who are perfectly capable of using drugs simply as a recreational thing. Same idea as sports or any other hobby for those people: it's something that they enjoy doing without it taking over the rest of their life.

<!--QuoteBegin-efthimios
Alcohol if it was invented today, it would be classified as a class A drug, together with cocaine etc. [/quote]
No it wouldn't. Here in the US they tried banning alcohol once and it's fairly well-known how that turned out. Alcohol has been a part of the universal human culture for centuries and the vast majority of people are able to use it without becoming alcoholic.

The UK drug laws are quite vague and are little more than sentencing guidelines. Cocaine and alcohol both, however, have redeeming medical uses which is why they would never completely disappear just as Class A drugs like hydrocodone haven't. Hell, cocaine is actually Schedule II drug in the US (whereas weed is Schedule I) and is available in certain licensed pharmacies (it's used as a topical anaesthetic by dentists, for example). [/b][/quote]
You perhaps did not read what I typed correctly.
I didn't say that they could ban alcohol today and make it work, I said if alcohol was INVENTED today, then it would be CLASSIFIED as class A.

You have to realize that emotions are subjective. Everyone has their own level of coping capacity, and by expecting everyone to instinctually function at the optimum level you are just being plainly unreasonable.
I'm not sure who ingrained into you your coping skills, or if in fact you were born with them, but not everyone has that liberty. To use myself as an example, I grew up watching my parents hide from their problems through drugs. Even though I could recognize the fallacy of this meathod, when I hit rock bottom I knew of no other example, and fell right into drugs. The drugs certainly filled a void, although temperarily. Would you condem a child, when not knowing any other route, for doing the only thing that felt natural?
This callus ideology of individualism really sickens me, and forgive me for jumping to conclusions, but I bet you have not delt with this subject personally, and are just writting paper theories here. This is not bad cause at least you are openly thinking. [/b][/quote]
Well, perhaps part of my coping abilities have to do with something in the genes (though in that case I don't know why my real parents are), but I am pretty sure most of it comes from my life, as a child and as a teenager (I am not going to count my most recent life examples).
I agree that not all can deal with something the same way and not all are as strong or as weak as anyone else. I never said to abandon all drug users. Just those that do not wish to get help, and that help should come at a price for them.

My ideology that you call callus individualism you are free to dislike as much as you wish. As a person you can (or at least should) even hate my ideas. I don't mind, I am glad that you are open about it. I am not sure I would call it individualism, but, then again I don't mind if you do. I do consider my above ideas as very good, and not only for user and non user in the context, but also for society at large. And I do not mean just because it could help reduce crime or whatnot, but also because it would reduce big brotherish laws. The government shouldn't be there to tell you how you are allowed to enjoy yourself and how not to, not even if it might kill you, as long as you do not directly harm anyone else, it should stay away from citizens choices.

Then again, I might just be a cold blooded thick skinned individual.


EDIT:
PS. I do not gamble, but if I did, you would lose that bet. Unless you were talking about me having tried drugs that is.

The colors thing was an example, and what I meant by it is that when tripping one generally sees colors as amplified and more vibrant. Either way, it's all beside my point. The horrifying vs. enlightening experience you refer to is still within the context of the user's surroundings. Salvia will create an entirely new reality for the user, one which does not necessarily obey the laws of physics or logic and which may be composed of new and unknown elements. Speaking as someone who knows a few people who've done both LSD and salvia, I'll bet that you can't find a single person who has tried both that doesn't consider salvia the more powerful drug.

I know plenty of regular users that smoke more than that, and if it was legal it would be even more. The point is that weed isn't safer just because people don't generally do it as much -- a false analogy -- that's like saying that jumping in front of trains is safer than jumping in front of cars because people don't do the former "as much."

My mistake, then. However, I'd consider alcohol a hell of a lot safer physiologically than weed.

I have too agree with seb..

I woudln't say alchohol was a drug just because it is addicting or else everything would be drug's playing computer games, masturbation even watching tv... of course there are two kinds of drugs there is the medical one and the bad one we are talking about now.

And dont try to tell me pot isn't bad for you.. okay medical mariujana is good if you need it, when you smoke pot the brain stop producing two chemical's i dont remember the name of those chemicals but they relaxes you and you get those chemicals by smoking pot so when the brain stop's producing it you need too smoke pot / or you really wanna smoke pot, when you stop smokin pot in time the brain will produce those chemicals but pot often leads too stronger stuff.

And Depressed people shouldn't take drugs they should go too the doctor and get some real healthy drugs..

So just dont take any bad drug's

A drug is a substance other than food that alters the way your body functions. Alcohol does that, games do not. Furthermore, it's an oversimplification to generalize drugs into "good drugs" and "bad drugs." What about amphetamines and their derivatives? On the one hand you have tweakers, on the other you have those afflicted with ADD. It hardly stops there.

The nature of a drug ("good" or "bad") is 100% dependent on the user.

I'm fairly certain that you're talking about serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine; except that you've got things so vage and muddled that what you said really doesn't make sense. The neurotransmitters I just mentioned are actually believed to be promoted (promotion of synthesis and inhibition of reuptake) by the consumption of weed.

What follows reads to me like a misrepresentation of tolerance. Sure, you're brain can develop a tolerance for THC, which promotes larger doses to achieve the same high, but that in no way has been shown to cause the usage of harder drugs; correllation != causation.

Yeah, except that those "healthy" drugs are often very similar to the "bad" drugs.

Every well-known anti-depressant today (Prozac, Zoloft, Effexor, Paxil, etc) is a serotonin promoter (SSRI). Guess what? Weed is also believed to be a serotonin promoter (doing proper scientific studies on a Schedule I drug is rather difficult, hence the lack of research).

I second that.

A drug is a substance other than food that alters the way your body functions. Alcohol does that, games do not. Furthermore, it's an oversimplification to generalize drugs into "good drugs" and "bad drugs." What about amphetamines and their derivatives? On the one hand you have tweakers, on the other you have those afflicted with ADD. It hardly stops there.

The nature of a drug ("good" or "bad") is 100% dependent on the user.

I'm fairly certain that you're talking about serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine; except that you've got things so vage and muddled that what you said really doesn't make sense. The neurotransmitters I just mentioned are actually believed to be promoted (promotion of synthesis and inhibition of reuptake) by the consumption of weed.

What follows reads to me like a misrepresentation of tolerance. Sure, you're brain can develop a tolerance for THC, which promotes larger doses to achieve the same high, but that in no way has been shown to cause the usage of harder drugs; correllation != causation.

Yeah, except that those "healthy" drugs are often very similar to the "bad" drugs.

Every well-known anti-depressant today (Prozac, Zoloft, Effexor, Paxil, etc) is a serotonin promoter (SSRI). Guess what? Weed is also believed to be a serotonin promoter (doing proper scientific studies on a Schedule I drug is rather difficult, hence the lack of research). [/b][/quote]
okay i got owned.......
but i still say it isn't good for you to do drugs...

Well I agree with that completely, it just really bothers me how most anti-drug propaganda (the TV commercials, the law, etc) these days is so poorly thought-out and often blatantly wrong. Anti-drug legislation is an attempt at inducing morals through law, which flies in the face of the basis of western government. The biggest issue I take, I suppose, is the failure of people campaigning against drugs to acknowledge that drugs aren't all bad, and that deciding not to use them should be a personal decision. The current FUD campaign (exploitive propaganda) I find morally reprehensible.

EDIT:
"PS. I do not gamble, but if I did, you would lose that bet. Unless you were talking about me having tried drugs that is."

:D that's exactly what I was talking about.

I don't totally disagree with you. There come a point when you have to draw the line. I haven't spoken to my mother in 4 years now. I'm sure the next phone call from my sister will tell me she has passed. Long gone are the times when I expected she could be normal/healthy/clean again. I love her, but I have cut myself off from her lifestyle. My emotional responce to your staement may very well by guilt manifesting inself in me. I will appologize for this in advance.
I guess the callus remark was pointing at the way you practically lable these "human beings" as despensable druggies. The fact is, with minute adjustments in your history, you could have easily been in anyone of these people's shoes. Would you embrace such an iron clad view if it was directed in your direction?
I am definitely more socialist then liberal or democratic. I believe that we are all equal for the most part, and I believe that society should serve a greater purpose. We need to support each other. Instead of refusing to help people, how about forcing them into rehab? That's right. Conditional sentence. Force them into a locked padded room. Force them to go to school; force them to take counsiling; force them to love themselves again.
We are humans. We are not perfect creatures. We need each other.

I think it's silly to say that marijuana isn't bad for you, or the health risks are minimal, or people didn't know that smoking was bad for them. You're breathing fire and smoke into your lungs, which are meant for air. :P

hehehehe oh man thats wrong!!! :D :D

I like a night of drinking, hate cigarettes, marajuhana makes me crazy then very very deperessed and I havent tried anything harder than that.

The thing I dont like about drugs is the power they have to completly ruin lives and the lives of those around them.
Its the one thing that makes me see through the temporary highs and see the long term lows.
At my age I dont want to f**k up my life and not be able to experience things that would want to.

... Oh man, I sound like my parents!! :wall:
Well theres a bug party on saterday so I might read a book or something to make up for the briancells I plan to loose! :bye:

Q:What's the difference between a drunk-driver and a stoned driver?
A:The drunk driver runs the stop sign, and the stoner waits for it to turn green.

In all seriousness though, there is no excuse for impaired driving;however, I am willing to bet here that far fewer people kill others driving on weed then on alcohol.
About the danger of cigarettes vs weed. Cigarettes, being legal, are open to big business. I brought this up before and no one seems to have touched on it so I'll state it again. There is a huge market for cigarretes, as there is weed, but the main difference is that the big guys can openly and blatently market their product to all ages and demographics. Just look at all the different types of smokes out there. There are smokes for everyone from the chain-smoking nervous wreck, to the casual social smoker, to the person trying their damnest to quit. There are ever "clean" smoking technologies in the works. There is gum, there are patches, there's ever chewing tabacco. Cigarettes are socially thought of as sexy and appealing. Sure some of you may refute this by saying you don't think so, but I assure you it is a cold hard fact. I have witnessed it in my own experience. This is why I am for "de-criminalizing" weed, but it is most definitely a bad idea to totally legalize it.

Actually, it was in the paper just a few days ago that here in QLD Australia, there are 5 times more drivers high on illegal drugs than drunk drivers. The article didn't say anything about accidents tho....
Actually, in more and more places, advertising tobacco and alcoholic beverages is illegal.

Is this the stupid tests where they take saliva samples?

Wasn't that proven unrelieble when they found traces of it in someone who hadn't taken any drugs for 4 or so months?

Very true. It is illegal in Aus.
They even took of alchoholic lollypops because they apeal to kids. LOL

They tried doing random drug driving tests but some of them failed so they removed them completly. Its not a bad idea, drug driving is practically just as dangerous.

@Scarecrow: most drug test can detect marajuhana in your system for about 5 months.

That's the problem isn't it?

If they detect it they believe you are under the influence when you could have taken it a month ago.

Other drugs, like cocaine, can clear out of your system within 24 hours. That's the problem with these drugs, some people who aren't under the influence are caught but tohers slip through the net.

Yes, and with other small changes in history I could be the richest guy on Earth. So what? If, IF IF, they are all hypothetical to me :-p Would I see things the same way? Since IF is the question, I can say, maybe!

BTW, I never said that drug addicts are anything less than the rest of humans.

Ah, you are a socialist, that explains your comments near the end then. No, I am not in favour of holding people prisoners because that is "good" for them. I am not against a "good" society and people helping each other if they want to. But it is their damn right to not give a damn about anyone if they want to. And it is their birth right to die from drugs if they want to. It is not your or anyone else's right to hold them and force them to follow a particular life style, even if that means they may die, or not, sooner.
Then again I am a liberal (not in the stupid and totaly mistaken way some conservatives in the USA call the democrats there) and definetely pro capitalism, so take that as you wish.

capitolism is leading us into hell on earth.
drugs help people escape from the pains of that hell. at the end of the day most users work to support there habit. why should we be allowed bloody alchahol and be prescribed some extremely nasty and powerfull glaxo smith kline sedation when life gets on top rather than being able to buy clean drugs.

also if the drugs were legalized the tax raised would be more than enougth to help users who go out of control. and as we already have those users and the tax burden of helping them (altho the goverment is always cutting money to the schemes that are there to help) why not raise the money to help from the substance that causes harm.

not all drug users are out of control. can you go a day without a cup of coffe. no hah caffine addict. and your life span will be less than that of someone who ingests pure opium

LOL check this over the years quite a few of the older people who have lectured me over my habits have been on prozac. i know what prozac does in the long term. what gives them a right to lecture just becuase they get there junk from the doctor.

Except for the occasional drop of wine and my weekly glass of vodka (on sunday, with fish) I have never done any drugs, though pretty much all my friends have used (or use) drugs.
I don't smoke cigarets either, I can't stand them.

its down to the individual. i dont look down on people who dont get hi. but i was personally always just curios about the whole thing. like the doors of perception kinda thing. i heard and read there was ways to go to other worlds and i wanted in.

Others do? Talk about a topsy turvy world.

Others do? Talk about a topsy turvy world. [/b][/quote]
LOL think about it dude. if you get non users who look down and sneer at users then obviosly its the same on the other side of the coin.

I don't want to drive this thread off topic, so I will not post a proper reply to this comment. Let's just say I disagree and leave it there.

I don't use drugs for one reason: they make people stupid.

nice 1 fpj that actually raised a smile. i dont think cases like that are like the standered weekend user though. its like saying all people who drink turn into these sort of people

no i havent

LOL think about it dude. if you get non users who look down and sneer at users then obviosly its the same on the other side of the coin. [/b][/quote]
Not true at all. My best friend Kerry and her mates have been taking drugs for a couple of years and they are totally gutted about it.

I don't think that it's a two-way system at all, people either like drugs and are willing to take them (and look down on those who don't) or they use drugs as an escape from normal life and don't have any kind of pride about it.

but does evry non user look down at users, no but some do
does evry user look down at non users no but some do

ect

although you could say that people who knock people for not taking drugs are just taking out there own inner frustrations at not being able to go without getting hi.
somepeople devide the world into straights and normalls. these people tend to be a bit like devvo though.