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[Sebatianos]

OK here goes SOME RULES FIRST:

1) This thread is not meant for people to say badd stuff about each other, but to give complaints about relevant things that bother you - and if possible to make a suggestion what could be done to improve on that.
2) It's not the purpose of this thread to start a fight, so keep it civilized!
3) Since the topic is serious enough, please restrain yourselves from making jokes.

Complaints so far:

Until now I noticed a few complaints that came up and here they are:

-the admins are changing member titles to their own liking (this one started a real uproar a few days ago). My suggestion - there is a list of titles people get and so far it worked OK. The list changed, but that's no big deal. If people complain we might have a poll about it. But names of people shouldn't be changed simply because mods/admins feel like playing around (it's a part of the profile after all). Some people were really upset about that.

-the warn meter also caused some debates. It's not the meter that's the problem it's the lack of clear rules. So one suggestion is to have a subforum, where your post wouldn't count (apearently people are conserned that spamers would get to high on the overall poster's list). Puffin made this suggestion, I agree with her. If people are making ridicilous posts only to have more of them, that should be stoped. I also suggest that some clear rules are pinned somwhere in the forum to show what exactly is spamming. Also there should be a way of complaining and setteling things if two people are in disagreement - some sort of a higher authority who would decide on case to case basis (since the general rules always have exeptions).

-and now a little complaint of my very own! Some threats are getting closed and reopened. Obviously admins/mods aren't always of the same opinion (it's only natural), but such things aren't setting good examples. There's much talk about admin wars,... I know it's only a joke, but it's not very constructive. So there should be some rules when a thread should be closed and how or why should it be reopened.

-some people have been complaining about sigs and avatars (mostly sigs) of some members. I think neither should be offensive, but it's difficoult to say what is and what isn't offensive. But I think that bloody images are a bit inapropriate... But I don't mind them myself, so I'm nearly bringing up a point made some time ago...

A suggestion next: The person who starts the thread should be able to have some control over it. After all that's the only person who knows why the thread was opened and what is still connected to the topic and what's not.

EDIT: And just a question at the end - it says at each subforum who it's led by. What exactly does that mean? Shouldn't that person be resposible for the intire containt of the subforum? That person should have the mod/admin status, right?

[Yamcha]

Well said now its up to all to keep up with this k:

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Dec 30 2004, 09:49 PM
EDIT: And just a question at the end - it says at each subforum who it's led by. What exactly does that mean? Shouldn't that person be resposible for the intire containt of the subforum? That person should have the mod/admin status, right?

Well, the persons that lead that subforums are mods, actually. So they're able to edit, lock, pin topics / threads and all that. Look on the main forum page below at the link that's called The moderating team

[Sebatianos]

Thanks Freddy.

I saw that, just didn't know what they actually and what their authorisation level was.

[wormpaul]

When i read this long post...i just felt that Sebastianos was right...

I`m also one of the complainers about a few things, that`s not because i was :ranting: but more i got the feeling that i miss some total control on this forum...

Just 1 idea about how it all should be...so that`s why you get confisiuon things and people start to screaming around because they can`t touch the things that they need ...

So maybe ?t`s too idealistic....or maybe i just want more then i can found on the internet (or this forum) but we just need a strong hand who is leading all...

Not a strong hand as a single person but more a feeling at the people who are leading the forum and saying things to other people...

I know i said it before...but still got the feeling that it isnt right here...and so i keep complaining to get it better..

Maybe it will work someday..otherwise i will keep dreaming :whistle:

[Kosta]

First of all, as for changing member titles.... These titles were initially made by admins when the forum was being configured. From time to time, an admin might feel that a person has earned a different title from the one that person has. In that case, an admin can change the title to his/her liking, as long as it has a valid reason behind it. Members can't change the titles by themselves so a custom rank can be assigned for a valid reason. If a member had his/her title changed without a request or approval, he/she should think why this has happened and try to fix it rather than bitching about it. Inapropriate or mean-spirited custom titles will never be set for fun.

As for the warn meter, there isn't an ISO standard that defines spamming, so we can't define it either. In general, if a person's posts do not contribute to the discussions they are posted in, or a member is using forum threads as real time chats, that will be considered spamming. What do I mean by "using threads as real time chat"? I'll give you an example - a short notice on the page says "when you do action x, you will be prompted for a password and enter blahblah". Next, you have a forum topic of a person asking "WHY AM I ASKED A PASSWORD WHEN I CLICK ON THE LINK!??! :blink:". This is spam? Why? Because the person obviously didn't take 10 seconds of his/her time to read the notice and try to find out the solution to the problem BEFORE asking. Of course, a post like that is usually followed by "Never mind, worked it out!!!!". So, before you post something, you should make sure you've explored all possibilities and tried to do everything yourself. Remember, google is your friend, and so is the forum's search feature

Also, posts that say "YAY!!!", "" and so on are considered spam. Why? Because a person that has made such a post obviously didn't have nothing to contribute to the discussion that was being made, but just made that post for the sake of it. This is VERY inconvenient that check new topics, say, once every few days. Imagine coming to the forum and seeing there are 370 new topics. Naturally, you probably won't bother to go through them all, and therefore perhaps miss some of the interesting discussions that were being made. The point of a forum is to sit down, think what you want to say, and then write it with clearly stating all your oppinions in one post. That's what differs it from a real-time chat, and that's why it shouldn't be used like that.

I feel stupid writing this because THERE ARE GUIDELINES in the flash movie that is pinned to the Blah Blah Blah forum. I think the members that got warned should VIEW the movie. It will define 99% of the spam that occurs on this forum. This especially goes to fawful, yamcha, punch and danny.

Also, the repercussions of getting your warn meter full will vary from case to case. Generally, with level 4 you will get 24 hours post restriction, and with level 5 a 24 hour suspension. These times will extend if the incidents re-occur.

As for threads getting closed and re-opened, hopefully the admins and moderators will come to some kind of an agreement in the future. After all, we are humans and not robots so mistakes can happen, you should learn to accept them. You won't get punished for making mistakes, I don't see why admins or moderators should.

And just a general comment about this topic. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism will be taken into consideration, while bitching will be ignored. For those of you that don't know what constructive criticism is, here's an explanation (I feel sebatianos didn't say it clearly enough) : if you have a complaint, write it here, BUT ALSO SUGGEST A SOLUTION to the problem. If you can't suggest your vision of a solution, it means you haven't really thought about the problem.

Overall, this is one of the most liberal forums I've encountered on the internet. We allow everything that is tasteful, and we haven't banned or suspended anyone yet. However, as it is in some cases, if you give people more freedom, they will start complaining about every little detail, and try to bring about revolts if measures are taken. This is, however, counter productive as I, as well as other admins, will be forced to enforce the rules even harder if people start complaining and bitching about every little thing they don't like.

All in all, if we follow some general guidelines or proper behaviour on forums, I think we can keep a civilized and good atmosphere.

[Eagle of Fire]

I am all against you Sebastianos. I really don't see the point of those "criticisms".

1) Admins changing title of users at will is very far from being a first to this board. It always been this way unless you actually happened to find a very liberal board which allowed it's members to do whatever they wanted. I personnally would not visit such a board because of the very likely chance to see chaos get amok there. As for the custom title, it's both a tool of fear and respect. Earn the respect of an Admin and you'll get a nice and nifty title, but do bad things and you run the chance to get a bad tittle you'll most likely not like. Fair thing IMHO.

2) Spam doesn't need to be specified. If you really don't know what spam is (which is very unlikely) and that you can't make it out with the current general term then you'll learn when you get warned. I myself hate spam, especially when it's used in the sole intention to add to post counts. Adding a new forum for that purpose will change nothing. Yes, it won't add to post counts in that particular forum but then a regular to such forum will more often than not hop back to the main forum (the one we have right now) and be frustrated by the fact that this one is regulated and clean, and by the fact that he just can't do the same thing here. This is really a door which should be kept shut because the danger is too great. I seriously don't think it would be wise to try this when you already got such a good forum as this one, well moderated and as clean as it can be.

For the warning level, I don't see the problem here. It's not like it never existed, it simply that you never been able to actually know it (even tough if you were close to get banned you should have a pretty big hint yourself). Being able to look at it everyday now will probably be a deterrent to those who feel like they should not raise another level, which is good. I myself don't even look at it because I don't fear it being raised anytime soon.

3) So far the only "thread lock war" I've seen was with a Moderator and an Admin. Obviously, the Admin is higher in the hierarchy and won. This was a simple matter of putting the Moderator back to his place and teach him not to question the Admin decisions without asking him about it first IMHO, and all revelant posts were deleted too. I don't really see what's the problem is here.

4) About sigs and avatar, it always happen that someone will bring something offensive to the board. That's human (or more probably but not always teen) nature to do so. If someone think an avatar or sig is offensive, just a simple PM would usually suffice... If it doesn't, a formal complaint to an Admin should move things up. But then, it must be really offensive and not only be something you make up, for it will always be the Admin oppinion and criticism which rule out in the end. One thing is sure: if an avatar or sig is only borderline, the Admins will let it go until they have a complaint.

I am also all against the starter of a thread to have some moderating power on his own thread. That would be stepping on the Moderators ground and there is a reason why there is specific Admins and Moderators around here. I seriously don't think it would be a good idea to allow everyone to become "a moderator for a day"...

[Titan]

Just fealt like i had to clarify something regarding the "Admin War":

Me and Tom went at eachother.. umm.. last spring?
It was all out fun, and we changed our titles and information over and over again, and anyone sticking theire head it, go the same treatment.
This was possible, since the forum and member-croud was MUCH smaller then.
Everyone saw it as a free show, and we kept at it for a while.
There where NEVER any seriousness in it, but beside the fact of PURE entertainment.

With that cleard, on to the next:
Kosta said someting good here:

As for the warn meter, there isn't an ISO standard that defines spamming, so we can't define it either.

This is one of the absolute hardest things to define.
Common, do you think you would keep getting spam-mails for Viagra if NOONE at all bought it? Those few persons wouldn't define the mail as spam, but rather as an offer.
Same goes for spam-posts. There is no other way to judge what is spam, then your own oppinion.

Some threats are getting closed and reopened. Obviously admins/mods aren't always of the same opinion (it's only natural), but such things aren't setting good examples.

I only know of ONE occation where this would have involved an Admin vs Admin situation (with me beeing the opening part).
It was a situation that caused alot of talking in the admins corner of the forum; and we have agreed on some rules to minimize the risks of this happening w/o reasons.
Thread may STILL be re-opend, but it will NOT be due to a single mind, more like the ressult of a vote among the Admins/Moderators.

Last: Sebatianos; You are one of our loudest members in the forum, always speaking up.
Keep at it. k:
Even if you get flatten out in the end, or come out as the "winner", it's good to have someone with new ideas, who express it in a good way, and not just

bitching about it.

[wormpaul]

@ Kosta, Titan and Eagle..

Read all your post and it`s getting very clear to me, what else can i say then great respect for you...

Writing things down the way there are now isnt that easy as it looks sometimes to people, but you were just great with that...(not to suck up, the truth may be said sometimes, even when it's positive)

But i got only one comment at the whole thing at last:

The whole internet is basicly based on respect for eachtother, people need to give respect to others and when people deserve special things they need to get the full respect for it.

And because this is an clean and seriously forum the grade of respect is here even more important, you can get respect from other members by helping them and that is wonderfull.

But just like in real life people wanna have some attention when they get respect from others, that`s why you should really pay good attention to several things on the forum. (when this was a lazy forum it wouldnt be needed....)

So be careful to give things away, people will read it and whill get dissapointed when someone get`s some luxury while they didnt deserve more respect then the person that is reading it.

At this way you can get people mad and very dissapointed, when it's grow too far you will lose people`s faith in you and they wont do that much for the site anymore.

So just to tell you all, make sure you do things with an idea behind it...

Wormpaul.

Ps. if you didnt get what i ment here (there was 1 big specific moment) just PM me and i will tell you. It`s not the time now to burn someone on this forum down because he made a mistake in the past... :angel:

[Stroggy]

Yeesh,
Am I the onlyone who isn't complaining?
I say live and let live, the forum is fine, any criticism is just 'bitching'
You take the good you take the bad and there you have, a net win for good.

See how for you people let this go: you got a lecture from ME about not complaining, bravo.