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[Timpsi]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Dec 14 2004, 04:01 PM
It's when they stop selling the game, that the opening in the law comes into play. The law prehibits distribution of games because its copyright holder is making money by selling it. Once they stop selling it - they don't make money of it! So you're not huring anyone if you offer the game for free. It's a borderline case - and it got the term abandonware. There's no law covering this - so no law is saying it's either legal or illegal.

Actually, abandonware is illegal. This is why ESA (former IDSA) has the power to force sites removing the games of its members. It may not interest most companies, but the law is pretty clear on this - just as you said, from the point of view of the legistlation, there is no such thing as abandonware, and therefore there is no "opening" in the law, either.

From the ESA website (paragraphing by me):

"U.S. Copyright laws permit making a "backup" copy of computer programs for archival purposes. However, the right to make backup copies of computer programs for archival purposes, as embodied in 17 U.S.C. Section 117(2), does not in any way authorize the owner of a copy of a video or computer game to post or download a copy of that game to or from the Internet.

Section 117(2) only gives the owner of the copy a right to make an archival copy of the actual copy that he/she legally possesses, not to make a copy of the ROM that someone else legally possesses, nor to post an archival copy of his/her original copy for distribution. Also, there is not an unfettered right to sell "backup" copies.

In fact, Section 117 is quite explicit in stating that any archival copy prepared under Section 117(2) can only be transferred to another person if, and only if: A) The original copy is also transferred, and only with the authorization of the copyright owner, and B) The transfer is part of the sale of all rights in the program."

Also from the site:

"the current availability of a game in stores is irrelevant to its copyright status. Unlike trademarks, copyrights are not considered abandoned if they are no longer enforced."

http://www.theesa.com/piracy.html

EDIT: ESA quotes are from their piracy FAQ page.

[Havell]

Ah, but those laws only apply in the US, in England we have similar copyright laws so abandonware is illegal but (for example) in the Netherlands it is not illegal to download abandonware (but it is illegal to supply it).

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by R Havell@Dec 14 2004, 05:03 PM
Ah, but those laws only apply in the US, in England we have similar copyright laws so abandonware is illegal but (for example) in the Netherlands it is not illegal to download abandonware (but it is illegal to supply it).

According to ESA, the matter is a bit different.

"U.S. copyrights are protected and enforceable in over 100 countries that have signed the Berne Convention, the TRIPs Agreement and/or have entered into in bilateral accords with the U.S. The Berne Convention and TRIPs Agreement set international standards for the protection of intellectual property rights."

The Netherlands have signed both the Berne Convention and the TRIPs Agreement, as have all WTO countries. This applies to at least all games by US publishers.

EDIT: List of countries that have copyright relations with the US: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ38a.pdf

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Timpsi@Dec 14 2004, 06:50 PM
"the current availability of a game in stores is irrelevant to its copyright status. Unlike trademarks, copyrights are not considered abandoned if they are no longer enforced."

So it is all completely illegal.
Sorry to say it guys - but this means we must shut down this site!!!
Bye - bye all abandonwere sites out there.
:bye:


*and the curtain falls*

[Havell]

I didn't know about those agreements that Timpsi mentioned, maybe just the bets way to avoid trouble is to just steer clear of arseholes like the ESA.

[Fawfulhasfury]

That doesn't mean MI1 and 2 can't be put up. I think Kosta knows bout the ISDA. I doubt he would even consider the MI games if he thought it would get this site in trouble. Have faith in him. If he is considering it, then it is most likely safe. End of this discussion.

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by Fawfulhasfury@Dec 14 2004, 06:49 PM
That doesn't mean MI1 and 2 can't be put up. I think Kosta knows bout the ISDA. I doubt he would even consider the MI games if he thought it would get this site in trouble. Have faith in him. If he is considering it, then it is most likely safe. End of this discussion.

Well, since there are games on the site that are also copyrighted by an ESA member (like The Smurfs, which was done by Infogrames (Atari)), it might be that the MI games will show up on the site. That wasn't the point of the legality discussion, though.

[Sebatianos]

Is there a list of games copyrighted by ESA members?

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Dec 14 2004, 07:40 PM
Is there a list of games copyrighted by ESA members?

Don't think so, but you can see a list of the members at http://www.theesa.com/members.html

[Sebatianos]

I don't get it.
Warner Bros. are there, but The Flight off the Amazon Queen is abandoned and free to uptain even on Scumm site.
I think these rules aren't enforced that harshly,...
While I was reading all those law sections I started wondering - copyright for software obviously isn't the same as that for songs (those automaticaly stop being enforced after a song is 25 years old, you can also make spoofs,...). Weird!