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[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Sly@Jun 17 2005, 10:29 PM
If the universe is expanding, what/or where is it expanding into? At the moment of creation or the big bang (depending on which side of the coin your on), time, space, and matter have to come into existence simutaneously.

Well I did try to explain how I see it all a few times before - but no in this topic...

The way I comprehand it... Every dimention (hight, wideness, dept, time,... I think there are currently 22 of them) is a straight infinite line.
All these dimentions would have to be paralel - but for a reason I can't even imagine at the moment these paralel lines (at lest two of them) weren't paralel - or were bent. Now this would mean that at one point hte non-paralel line would have to cross every single line (if the rest of them are paralel). And at that crossing a force came to existance that started attracting other lines - thus creating a cross section. We are at the cross-section of the dimentions that are... I can manipulate only 3 and comprehand the fourth (but I'm prety sure energy could also be a dimention of its own).
Now becasue more and more lines are pulled together and they arent crossing just in one point anymore - but are overlaying eachother - the universe as we know it (our crossing) is expanding.
Outside of the univesre exist only 1 dimentional space - which we might imagine, but is completely irreal to us. None of the physical laws would exists there.

Now before someone claims that tere had to be a god in the begning to create those lines and to make them cross... I don't know, but if an intelegence so great exists - how did it come into existence? Saying it was here forever just isn't good enough - because I could repeat - Big Bang happened over and over again until this would become an argument.
Religion doesn't understand how god could come into existance - I don't understand how the pre-universe state came to existance. But I'm addmiting my lack of knovlege - most religions simply say - that's where you have to have faith that some old pieces of writing are ture.

And one more thing (althoug I said it already in other topict)...
My way of sing it again (you don't have to give it a second thought if you disagree) There is no god - but there might be a 'devine' force above us. The only thing we can't really go against is the law of nature. It's not inteligent, there is no willing force behind it - yet everything must act according to its nature (and to the physical laws that apply inb this nature of existance).
But if this force isn't neither willfull nor does it poses self-awareness can you really call it a force - or is it just a fact you need to exept and admit you don't know all about it and probably never will (unlike religion, where when you run out of arguments you can just say - that's not for us to understand).

[Havell]

There is no need for extra energy to be added. 10 seconds after the Big Bang there was lots of energy and it was very densely compacted, as there was no force to counter it's motion, everything continued expanding outwards.

[Flop]

Originally posted by Sly@Jun 17 2005, 10:29 PM
According to the Laws of Conservation of Matter and Energy, the amount of matter and energy in the universe is a fixed amount. Neither one is created nor destroyed.

There is no reason to believe that for evolutionary purposes that the universe is an open system, because something would have to be supplying the universe with additional energy, thus violating the conservation laws.

Unless you assume that the universe is infinite and contains infinite matter and/or energy, in which case it would not be a closed system and the law of conservation of matter and energy wouldn't apply.

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Tulac@Jun 17 2005, 07:04 PM

Also on the point of existance of God, oriental religions are much wiser IMO, because they don't reffer to the creator as a person

Actually I believe the only western religion who explicitly says the creator is a person (or reveals itself as a person) is Christendom. Not quite sure what Islam's take is, but I'm definite Judaism believes that G'd is a lifeforce connecting us all and providing a balance, not some Zeus-like character.

[omg]

---- this is a theory.

if you belive in black holes then the universe is finite. im probably not the best person to explain this but i will give it a go. as stars get really old they either supernova, expand into red giants, collapse into white dwarfs or they become black holes. black holes it is theorised expand as they consume matter. so the more it swallows the heavier it gets, the heavier it becomes the greater the area of space it chews up. now if big bang theory is correct then the stuff on the outer edge of the universe is older than the stuff in the middle. so the further out into the universe you go the greater the chance of encountering a black hole. the theory is that at the edge of the universe there is nothing but black holes as they expand the older they get so you get as far from the center of the universe as you can you get to the really old part of the universe and the black holes have expanded leaving nothing but a giant mass of black holes. gaah. it does my head in but it seems to make sense. good old channel 4!! this theory was backed by exited looking dudes in beards so i figure they know more about it than me. and there exitement was contagios. im sure if you had all seen the program you would feel the same way. they have the curvature of deep space x rays as evidence for the effect apparently. so if there theory is true then the universe is a closed system. closed in by swirling vortexes of galexy chewing destruction. i think it then leads on that eventually there will be nothing but black holes, which will eat each other, untill there is just one giant black hole. which will then explode.
huzzah for science!
im not a creationist but when i start hearing about stuff like this it definatly makes me belive in intelligent desighn.

[Shunk Eat Enemy]

im so happy im atheist a matter of a fact reading though these 10 pages of posts makes alot more atheist
i'd say i lost all hope since bush was put in office for the first time the second time i siad hell with religon has failed me so has the goverment for using it as a base for laws now

QUOTE]
You know between Athe?sts saying all people who believe in god being weak idiots and christians claiming the world was created 6000 years ago... I think I may just be one of the few moderates in this thread. Can you believe it!? ME, a moderate!
[/quote]
@stroggy
now your just being narrow minded i dont really care if anyone beleives in god or there religon + for me asking what religon someone had it be like asking what underwear they wore.
1 it would be rude
2 i done really care

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Shunk Eat Enemy@Jun 18 2005, 03:12 AM

now your just being narrow minded

I was pointing out the extremes, those obviously don't include you, my friend.

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Shunk Eat Enemy@Jun 18 2005, 04:12 AM
...You know between Athe?sts saying all people who believe in god being weak idiots...

I hope no one felt this way because of my remarks.

I am generally convinced that more then half of the people in the world are idiots - no mater what nationality, religion, skin color, social background, education level, gender, shoe size, music taste... is.
But the world has over 6 billion people - and I doubt we have more the 3 billion here (to necesarily start including the idiot variety of them).

[Stroggy]

Define idiocy?

I think ignorance is a more suitable term, and 100% of the world is ignorant in one way or another.

[Quintopotere]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Jun 17 2005, 08:54 PM
Every dimention (hight, wideness, dept, time,... I think there are currently 22 of them) is a straight infinite line.

this should be a restrictive hypothesis...

Anyway i think that we can see our universe like a big black hole, so we don't have to mind what occour out of its horizont, it's a close sistem and the large amont of matter keep curved the dimensions.
We THINK that dimensions are linear, but it's an illusion: it's too difficult for me explain this in english, but it's like the optical illusion when you put a stick in the water and it SEEMS curved...