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[PrejudiceSucks]

Marco - Three times as many men successfully commit suicide than women. It's already a big problem. There's also the problem of the world being overcrowded. People can say what they want about preserving the human race through banning contraception, but the more people there are the more people will starve. If it's for the greater good then abortion should definately be allowed.

[Tom Henrik]

Just a little scenario, and one that happens to millions of girls (many of which are in a relationship) each year across the globe:


Marko, your girlfriend is raped and she gets pregnant. I bet my life savings that she would want an abortion. What do you do?

Do you stand by your woman, or do you force her to have the baby because it is a life?

If you force her to go through with the birth, do you think she would be able to love you afterwards? She will definately not love the baby. And would you be a good father? Would you send the kid away to adoption, because you won't take responsibility for the child? (A child you have forced upon this world.)

My prediction is that if you force your girlfriend to have that baby, it will cost you your girl. And also the respect of your own mother, and many other members of your family.

I know that if my son forced a girl to go through with childbirth after a rape, that I would write that son of my will at once and hand his share of my fortune to the girl. I would write that son off my family-list, until he learned moral values and respect for other people.

If that son took care of the baby and raised it as if it was his own, that would tell me that there is still hope for him, but he would still be a huge egotistical jerk in my eyes.

[marko river]

First of all, i want to make clear that when say "you shouldn't abort", i'm talking to both of males and females, because they both get to decide. Especially if they are together or know each other so they can talk what's best.

I'm still against abortion. Guys, don't think that i don't even read nor think about the stuff you're saying. But i don't find that worse than not having already created baby. I don't see how anyone can even question value of life. Abortion due to some reasons means finding something more important than life itself.

I'll answer to some of the Chuck's quotes.

When i say that we don't have the right to decide instead of unborn baby, that doesn't mean that i'm the one to decide (and i don't see why do you think that i'm some sort of arrogant-freak). That's like draw situation, we don't have the right to decide, so it's either abortion or birth. But the bare fact that we don't know the right solution should be the fact against the abortion. It IS a new life. Somehow i find not only moral, but NORMAL (let me spell this: N-O-R-M-A-L) to choose the life. Don't start wiht possible consequences, i'll get to it.

As for her 9 months bother and birth pains, saying that this is reason for not having a baby is unthikable to me. I wasn't even thinking of situation when mother's life is in danger. That something special and even if i think that she might take the chance for the sake of the kid (which i honestly do) i can't blame her (which i wouldn't). The fact that it is not my pain doesn't make my words empty. I would be glad to accept the "pain transfer" from my girlfriend during the birth. Unfortunally, i have to wait for the scinece a little bit.

Now, all of you guys talking about suicides and father killing entire family, well, i don't mean to sound rude but you guys can't say anything to me about that. You live in EU (at least the most of you) where you GET paid for your job. I'm the one living in post-comunist country with 15 years of war and dictatorship behind. Democrates failed to make life more better, coruption is everywhere and people started to "snap" long time ago.
But people who snapped and commited suicide gave up because they couldn't take it anymore. I don't see that we should base our society on these examples.

In 19th century England, workers wroked 16 hours in factories for paychecks that could barely cover food expences and children worked in mines. There were absolutely NO conditions for children. Before capitalism, villagers BELONGED to caunts and lords. And before that there were thousands years of slavery in the world. I bet that there were people that snapped in those times. But people continued to have children. As you can see human race still exists. I took centuries for slaves to become free and decades for workers to get unions. In future, people will fight for even better life.
Now you would go bac to the past and tell people not to have children and to abort if conditions are not satisfying???

Wheter you like it or not, life is eternal battle for better life. That's how monkeies became men. Who told you that life is supposed to be easy? And when you find out that it is not? People commiting suicide are the ones that gave up and they pay the price for that. But extended suicides and abortions, then someone alse pay the price for giving up. In my eyes, abortion is not only immoral but also a crime. Offcousre, ican't really say that for special cases, but most of the cases are not the "special ones".

Once and for all, THIS WORLD IS NOT OVERCROWDED. It is actually centuries away from overcrowding. Problem is order and society. Society should continue to improve itself as it always did.

What made you guys think that i would force a girl to have a baby? I'm not gonna hold a gun to her head for 9 months. And raping is specail case. I have the story for that too, but this post is already too long. I again for the baby, because it has nothing to do with us and our mistakes (when talking about raping, then it's the rapist who made a mistake for doing that, just to be clear). Still, any kind of psychic stress should be cured. At least try to do that before choosing a simple abortion. I would try to explain to my girlfriend why she should have a birth. And explain and explain. I can't be exactly sure how far i would go if the child is mine, but i find it inhuman to let her abort my child. I don't want to think about that.

Prejudice, forgive me if i'm gonna offend you or your mother with this retoric question, i'm just wanna give an example. You said that your mother had you with 18 and that she would probably had a better life if she had a child several years later. That's probably true. Does that mean that you both regret because she didn't abort?

I don't think so. I also think that once she reamined pregnant, it wasn't JUST HER LIFE in the story. I find this normal.

I don't know. I guess i grew up among some kind of maniacs who think that it is normal to love your children more than yourself.

All these resaons for abortion are just excuses to me. And to tell you the true, in 90% of cases these reasons sound completely selfish.

Why? Do you guys think that we should kill the children because of some reasons? If you respond yes, then you hardly can call yourself a human being.
But i have no doub that you'll respond with NO. That brings us back to the root of the problem "is abortion right thing".
I guess that all of you who don't mind abortion don't take it as loss of child. Embrio is small, not completely alive and therefore abortion is not wrong thing to do if that's if you decided that that's better.

To me, abortion is termination of life. Therefore, if i find at least one reason good enough to approve abortion, i can't call myself a human being anymore. It's unthinkable to me that there is reason for abortion. Simple as that.

I hope i made myself clear. I apologize if stating of my arguments sounded like persuasion, because i'm also against persuasion. Just, all these approvals for abortion sound too horrible to me.

And Chuck, i don't like being called a chauvinist pig because i want my child to be born so much.

[Tom Henrik]

So, after reading your entire post very carefully I

• See that you actually support abortion in special cases.
• Also see that you in that enormous post didn't comment on anything I said.

That brings me to think that you don't think of the scenario I made as one of those special cases. And the following statement seem to prove that.

And raping is specail case. I have the story for that too, but this post is already too long. I again for the baby, because it has nothing to do with us and our mistakes (when talking about raping, then it's the rapist who made a mistake for doing that, just to be clear).

This really make me wonder what you consider a special case where abortion should be allowed. :eeeeeh:

[A. J. Raffles]

Originally posted by marko_river@Sep 26 2005, 10:38 AM
I wasn't even thinking of situation when mother's life is in danger. That something special and even if i think that she might take the chance for the sake of the kid (which i honestly do) i can't blame her (which i wouldn't).

:blink: Now isn't that awfully nice of you.

[omg]

i wanna wade in here. i kinda scanned the thread so if i am just repeating things that people have said i apoligise but its a really long thread.

ok marko river have u never heard of the willow twig? people have been performing abortions scince roman times using that method altho only early in the pregnancie because it is a very dangerous method. in those days with people making hardly enuff money for there familys mothers would abort babys to advoid being unable to afford feeding another mouth. also people would just leave there babys in the forest to die. (the root of the hansel and gretel fairytale)

at the end of the day abortion has to be a personall choice. you let the doctors and the state decide what a women does with her body and you are heading into totalalatarionsim (dam spelling) and we are meant to be heading AWAY from that (altho with what is going on in america and europe it looks like we are heading BACK to it..)

pro life orginisations are made up mostly of men oddly enuff....
and i know many a wag has said it before but how the hell can orginisations who are basically terrorists (ie: they cause terror to people, in some cases have bombed doctors, shot doctors, destroyed the property of doctors and nurses who perform abortions and made these people live in fear for there lifes)
how in the hell is that pro life?

and why arnt these people in guantanamo bay??

oh and as for saying the world isnt becoming overcrowded, LOL, LOL , LOL, maybe places like australia arnt but england is. we are having to build on arable land evry year it wont be long untill we actually run out of land. and i doubt that the abortion rate causes more than a tiny blip on the population growth radar.

[marko river]

Originally posted by omg@Sep 26 2005, 12:51 PM
ok marko river have u never heard of the willow twig? people have been performing abortions scince roman times using that method altho only early in the pregnancie because it is a very dangerous method. in those days with people making hardly enuff money for there familys mothers would abort babys to advoid being unable to afford feeding another mouth. also people would just leave there babys in the forest to die. (the root of the hansel and gretel fairytale)

So that supposed to change my view of abortion? We should allow abortion because people used to leave their kids in the woods or have been performing abortion from the first civiliations? Well, war, stealing, prostitution and other things are also done throughout entire history, but i don't think we should legalie that.

Tom, i 've read your example. I thought you could find the answer in my post. I would most probably (i don't want sound arrogant to say 100% sure) still be against abortion even if my own girlfriend was raped. If there is some maniac that hurted her, baby is not to blame. Yes, it would be a living hell if she discoveres that she is pregnant, but explaining should make her realize that baby is also her own. I will tell you story about raping tommorow.

Now Tom, your second eample. Girlfriend of your son remains pregnant and he wants the baby, she doesn't. He "force" her to have birth and you write him off from your family. After many years it appeares that your son had only rightful intentions. He loves the baby, he works hard to provide the baby the best life he can and so. So you realize that maybe you were too harsh, because he wanted this baby because he loves it, because it is his own, although mother didin't wanted. So you decide that you could be there for him in hard days. After all, he is your kid. So you realize that your grandchild should have the family that you personally put away from it. After all, if your son is jerk for what he did, child is completely innocent.
Then i would like to see your introduction to your grandchild.
"Hello there. I'm your grandfather. You haven't seen me before because i wasn't talking to your father. That's because he prevented your mother from aborting you"

And you have to say something like that, only to make it sound better.

Why is something like male wanting his own child so unnormal to you?

[marko river]

Apologie Tom, never saw that you meant if your son's girl was raped!!!

Well, i woudn't "force" her, but i would still be against abortion.

And the fact that i'm not the one who gets raped and pregnant doesn't mean that i'm merciless and that i never felt pain. (don't fell sorry for me, please )

[A. J. Raffles]

I think I'm just going to leave this discussion and have done with it. There's just no point in arguing with some people.

[Tom Henrik]

I think I'll do the same. Wait up Raffles. *runs after*