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[Mighty Midget]

I'm afraid I don't share your enthusiasm over this "democracy" thing. First, in my book the US of A has never been democratic. Free elections and freedom of speech doesn't make democracy by themselves. Second: The indirect elections in the US is by definition not democratic. Third: If you speak your mind in the US when the witch hunt is on, you will be toast, not neccessarily by the Government's hand, the private media can throw a hell of a punch if they want to drive people into a lynching frenzy. Immediately after the 9/11 anyone who looked even remotely Asian ran the risk of being shot quite dead or beaten to a pulp. A lot of that has to be the responsibility of the media.
Western governments have a long tradition of supporting non-democratic movements, preferably a long way from their own lawn. Why on earth should I think that Tinkerbell and Peter Pan recently paid them a visit and talked them into behaving civilized? Peace doesn't always make money, and if it doesn't... Money and profits are the core elements in western democracy, not some naive, childish and unlucurative notion that we will all hold hands while the lamb and the lion play happily and friendly together in a field of daisies. Politics and common sense are not compatible as it is today.
A thought: Who got the contracts when they launced the plans of rebuilding Iraq? Not too many Iraqi companies. Wouldn't it make more sense to give the contracts to the companies that would have been the core of the new Iraq? Why did all the big deals go in favour of western companies?

[rlbell]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mighty Midget @ Dec 31 2006, 12:32 AM) [snapback]272834[/snapback]</div>

I'm afraid I don't share your enthusiasm over this "democracy" thing. First, in my book the US of A has never been democratic. Free elections and freedom of speech doesn't make democracy by themselves. Second: The indirect elections in the US is by definition not democratic. Third: If you speak your mind in the US when the witch hunt is on, you will be toast, not neccessarily by the Government's hand, the private media can throw a hell of a punch if they want to drive people into a lynching frenzy. Immediately after the 9/11 anyone who looked even remotely Asian ran the risk of being shot quite dead or beaten to a pulp. A lot of that has to be the responsibility of the media.
Western governments have a long tradition of supporting non-democratic movements, preferably a long way from their own lawn. Why on earth should I think that Tinkerbell and Peter Pan recently paid them a visit and talked them into behaving civilized? Peace doesn't always make money, and if it doesn't... Money and profits are the core elements in western democracy, not some naive, childish and unlucurative notion that we will all hold hands while the lamb and the lion play happily and friendly together in a field of daisies. Politics and common sense are not compatible as it is today.
A thought: Who got the contracts when they launced the plans of rebuilding Iraq? Not too many Iraqi companies. Wouldn't it make more sense to give the contracts to the companies that would have been the core of the new Iraq? Why did all the big deals go in favour of western companies?
[/b]

It is not my enthusiasm, it is the enthusiastic hope of GW Bush. Democracy is an aweful way to run things, but every other way is subject to circumstances or abuses that make them worse. If we could guarantee that every tyrant was as capable as Terry Pratchett's Havelock Vetinari (Patrician of Ankh-Morpork), despotism would run circles around all other forms of government. However, it only takes one ruthless individual who selfishly chases raw power to spoil it for everybody. Egypt still benefits from Nasser's dictatorship, decades after his death. Even if only compared to who he replaced (the Baptiste regime), Castro has done wonders for Cuba.

Freedom of speech does not force people to agree with you. Sales of Beatle records may have collapsed after the 'more popular than god' comment, but no american was allowed to actually harm John Lennon's person. Compared to the mobs stirred up by muslim clerics, mobs of americans are terribly, terribly tame.

You must have meant 'arab' or 'islamic'. In north america, asian either means from the indian sub-continent or (to quote HRH Prince Phillip) 'slitty-eyed'*. To us, the Middle East is only really part of Asia if we are playing RISK.

Western governments stopped supporting totalitarian, anti-communist regimes once the Soviet Union was no longer able to prop up totalitarian, socialist regimes. Admittedly, this is still relatively new, but any totalitarian regime still extant has been able to bankroll itself. Now that the threat of the Global Communist Conspiracy has been revealed as the paper mouse that it truly is, you cannot get money from western democracies merely for being anti-communist

Which Iraqi companies had the manpower, organization, and equipment to rebuild Iraq? Thanks to UN sanctions, there were none. Due to the predations of the insurgents, the foreign companies cannot even hire locals to do the work. Quite frankly, I hope the Iraqi's stiff the US for the reconstruction bill (they did not ask the US to destroy their infrastructure, nor did they ever vote for Saddam).


* I would like to apologise to anyone who may have been offended. There is nothing wrong with having epicanthic folds in the eyelids. It is just difficult to describe racial characteristics without making what the PC police would call a racist remark. I heard an ad parodying the American Civil Liberties Union: "As you celebrate the holidays in accordance to your traditions, someone, somewhere, is offended"

[Japo]

Contracts weren't granted to Iraqi companies, not because they were ruined by the sanctions, but because Iraq was a Socialist state and so there were no such things as Iraqi companies, everything bigger than your usual kebab stall was state-owned.

The USA didn't support only anti-communist regimes, Saddam was pro-communist for one. But I repeat, the USA aided him *only* during the war, when it was the clever thing. And even Yugoslavia's Tito, who was a communist, received lotta cash from US taxpayers, simply because even being communist, his being anti-USSR entitled him to. But this pertains to that half of thigs happened which people haven't heard about for some reason.

MM, if the USA is no democracy in your book, let me know which country is or is closest to be. And I'm amazed that, being so very likely that people be shot quite dead or beaten to a pulp, no such things actually happened in so big a country as the USA. I lean to think that you may have exaggerated. And I don't see the media following orders from the White House, with the CNN's news editor saying that US troops shoot at journalists on purpose to kill, and all those late shows ridiculizing Bush every single day --often resulting hilarious I must say. And what witch hunt is that, who's in jail or whatever in the USA for speaking?

[Mighty Midget]

Japofran: People where indeed killed or beaten in the US after the 9/11 attacks. The mobs attacked Sikhs as well as arabs. They didn't care. Just because it didn't make breaking news in your neighbourhood does not mean it didn't happen.

And about US support to Saddam... seems our educational systems use different history books. We were told in school how the US/UK especially got Saddam to power.

I never said the Media follow orders from the White House. I said the media sometimes have an agenda, and the power to turn oppinions. Do you trust or question the newspapers you read, Japofran?

About democracy: In my book, there is no such thing as democracy other than an idea. Plain and simple. Simply because there is no country where the crowd calls the decisions. The Swizz are onto something, but they are not democratic through and through. Semi-democracy = non-democracy.

[Japo]

How many people were killed or beaten, a representative amount? And surely the government was all behind it, and the judicial system did nothing. If democracy is nothing but an idea, it's a useless concepts since it represents nothing within reality. Then I'll ask you which country has a fairer political system in your opinion. I tend to imagine that you think that direct voting like in ancient Athens is a necessary condition for democracy. The Athenian democracy was a great accomplishment in its time, but its unsuitability for nothing but a tiny city apart (people living miles from Athens had the right to vote but they had to actually go to the city every time they wanted to vote), it lacked some elements which are essential in a true democracy. In Athens, if approved through popular vote, everything was legal. From stripping a citizen of its civil rights including even the very right to live within Athens (ostracism), to slaughtering thousands of innocents (this is no hypothetical case, I'm thinking about a definite one), including convicting men who hadn't been proven guilty but whom the "mob", as you call it, considered so.

I had a teacher back at the school that told us that aliens were messengers of God, who was in turn but electromagnetic radiation, and that Elijah's chariot was an UFO. I know that US's supposed commitment with Saddam is a widespread idea, but that doesn't make it any truer. Pray explain why the Iraqi army's arsenal was Soviet instead of American like for example Lebanon's is.

I question the media, if you hadn't guessed I don't believe that US troops shoot at journalists on purpose to kill, that terrorists --or "militants" are they're now called by all media-- are freedom fighters, or that Israelis are nazis. And of course the media do have the power to turn opinions, forty years ago most Europeans were friendly to Israel.

[Mighty Midget]

Ok, I see my tendencies for sarcasm gets the better of me and that I'll have some work to do on myself But anyway, here goes:

How many got killed or beaten? I have no idea, but I remember the news broadcasts showing victims as well as people shouting how they wanted to smash "them" up. And no, I don't believe I got "the full story"

I never said the government was behind it. I said the media should take responsibility. We both agree that the US media, even the Gov. friendly, are privately owned. They have their own interests. But more often than not, the government in any country will make business' interests their own. So, it's really _kind of_ the opposite of "media being the mouth of the government".

Democracy: I simply do not believe there's such a thing because I really don't believe there is a single human being, ever, who had/have/will have the brains for democracy to work. We're all just to dumb, ignorant, greedy and stuck in illusions of grandour. For Pete's sake: Billions of us seriously believe we humans _own_ nature!!!! And to make matters even worse: Billions of us seriously believe that we are not _part_ of nature!!!! THAT is ignorance, stupidity, greed and illusions of grandour.
THe basics of democracy, as I see it,, is that _everyone_ who contributes should have just as much a voice as anyone else contributing. Today, or in the ancient Greece, that has never been the case.
I don't see a single country as better as anyone else. It's all just different ways of messing things up beyond belief.

As for the Soviet equipment, I alredy did: The Iranian shah was supported by the west, and in good old traditions, Iraq was supported by the East. Later that changed a bit, when the priests got to power in Iran.

About terrorism: The definition of terrorism is made by "those we trust the most". That's all. And they are all right. Terrorists strike innocents on both sides.

[Japo]

Well anyway I do think some countries are better than others. And I would most definitely live in some of them than in others. As for the media, let's see what's their agenda, for instance, regarding Saddam's hanging:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=...tnG=Search+News

All news items in mainstream media show Saddam's hanging as a mistake, or are whitewashing his image outright. My favourite is this:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=174752

an operating room nurse assigned to Saddam during his US military detention, described a courteous, contemplative figure in stark contrast to the brutal reputation Saddam earned during his rule over Iraq. [...] "He was an avid reader. Loved to read and write. He had a lot of stories that he had written. He had a pamphlet that he wrote in every day and then when time came to visit him he'd read things to me," [...] "That was my job: to keep him alive and healthy, so they could kill him at a later date," [...] "I was kind of disappointed (by the execution)," [...] When Saddam at one point was allowed short walks outside, the former president would feed birds pieces of bread saved from his meals, the nurse told the St Louis newspaper. Saddam also watered a plot of weeds. [...] "He said he was a farmer when he was young and he never forgot where he came from," [...] Ellis said he did not believe Saddam was lonely while in detention "because he was jovial at times". [i.e. God was with him] [...] Saddam "had a good sense of humor. You know, made jokes, you know. And he spent most of his time reading, and praying," he said.[/b]

So kitsch.

[Mighty Midget]

LOLLAM! That quote is great! Of course it is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... HAHAHA "Saddam" is an Arab word and means "cuddly", we all know that :P

As for which country to live in: To me it seems I can choose between countries that will do me in and countries that will be too embarrasing to live in. One country tries to wipe out it's own population, another tries to wipe out it's neighbour's population and a third tries to wipe out the entire planet. (PS that was an exaggeration :P but one with a point). Point is: It comes natural for us to think about ourselves, "which country would _I_ like to live in?" without thinking about the destruction we cause all over. Of course I would prefer to live in Norway rather than N. Korea... personally... based on what I've heard... But I'm not sure if N. Korea is more to blame for any global mess than Norway is to blame. Frankly, a lot of this country's actions are a bloody disgrace. "Be killed or to die of shame, that is the question"

[Icewolf]

Well, _I_'d put more philosophy in the punishment.
Instead of killing him he could have... bonded bags or something. Planting trees. Like giving something back he took away. And make him think and suffer.
Uh, check this out: planting trees -> giving life He won't be able to reincarnate people but he gives life back.
Now he's dead and won't realize a thing.
This is just an example, I guess you guys get the point.

[Himmler]

icewolf, he's not born and raised like you. he would plant the trees but keep the same logic. the thing is you won't realise a thing he knows and believes in, because you're on the other side of the planet, almost.
meh...another one bites the dust.
saddam => _)_
good punishment, i heard he died in 3 minutes. saw his long neck
happy new year! we're in E.U. (romanians)... you'll hear from us again(from those on the ...bad side) :P