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[Eagle of Fire]

tell me if my statement is false and if protecting old unsold games copyrights makes sense?

It does make sense. Companies are bent on making money, they would not pay to protect their games if it would not also protect their interest. We don't really need to understand which interest, it's just logical that they do.

I think what I said in my previous post is enough to think it do make sense.

[plix]

Originally posted by bjbrains2002@Mar 5 2006, 10:30 PM
"Hillary Clinton, Joe Leiberman and a lot of other Democrats and a few Republicans" Punch/alex/whatever you are calling yourself, the republicans (Jack Thompson) are more anti free-speech than the democrats.

It's really stupid to try and play that point down party lines; both parties suck in this regard. The Republicans currently are extremely conservative religiously and trump up and ban the "anti-Christian" in everything while the Democrats believe that they exist solely to legislate the upbringing of the nation's youth. Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman both believe that it's the government's job to restrict free trade in the interests of preventing games they deem inappropriate from falling into the hands of anyone (they just use "the children" as political leverage).

Originally posted by gregor+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gregor)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Edit: interesting laws we have on photocopying books. as long as you use it for your own purposes and dont' make more than 3 coppies everything is legal. also you are not to copy the whole book but only max 70% of it. hmm imagine simlar law for games...[/b]

That law isn't specific to xeroxing as I recall, and either does itself cover games/digital works or there exists another that does. Even the evil DMCA contains provisions for such things. You are legally entitled to create backup copies of works (including games) you own proper license to, but are required to do so yourself from copies you actually own. Protection mechanisms coupled with the DMCA complicate this for newer games using things like StarForce, but that's a separate issue.

<!--QuoteBegin-gregor
well in this case copyrights are basically right of intelectual property. so by using games you would be using ideas, knowledge and work of someone else without even paying for it.[/quote]
Intellectual Property does not exist. It's a very ill-defined, abstract idea used by lawyers to shroud what's actually being discussed. There is copyright, trademark, trade secret, and patent; but no "Intellectual Property." It's just as deceptive as calling copyright infringement "theft" and intentionally so.

Originally posted by Eagle of Fire
The ESA is only a workforce company. They didn't create the rules they enforce, they don't decide what to do. They do what they are told to do, because they are paid to do it. And it's perfectly legal.

Wildly incorrect. The ESA is as much a "workforce company" as it is a lobbying group. The ESA (and the SPA, SIIA, SPA, IDSA and every other name it's used over the past two decades) has been a major political group on capitol hill since it was created. The ESA exists to make money and the amount it makes is directly predicated upon the profits of it's members. The ESA doesn't give a damn about morals because it is a company. Companies don't have emotions and they certainly don't have morals. Liking or not liking the ESA is immaterial.

--

That out of the way, something that has always bugged me has reappeared in this thread several times. These games, much as I love many of them myself, were created by people and are owned legally by someone/something. Just because you've played them does not earn you some partial ownership. You have no more right to these games than you do your neighbor's car. It is the right of the copyright holder to refuse to make available these older titles.

That said, I fully support the limits imposed upon the length of copyright and feel the indefinite extensions pushed by Disney every few years (think Sonny Bono copyright act) are ludicrous. However, a vast majority of abandonware titles still fall under the terms of the classic copyright laws. These games are a part of modern culture and should be preserved, but very few -- if any -- of the complaints raised here have anything to do with preserving; they have everything to do with enjoying.

Food for thought.

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Mar 6 2006, 09:15 PM
Why are we even having this discusion?

To quote myself...

[Tulac]

It had something to do with cheese...

Anyway to concluede this topic is completely useless since it didn't change anyones opinion, and it's sole purpoese was.. well there wasn't any I guess?

[Titan]

Once you feel you'r done, tell me and i'll lock it up.

[moogle]

Originally posted by Eagle of Fire@Mar 6 2006, 08:39 PM

It does make sense. Companies are bent on making money, they would not pay to protect their games if it would not also protect their interest. We don't really need to understand which interest, it's just logical that they do.

I think what I said in my previous post is enough to think it do make sense.

This topic is retarded, I must say...
Anyways @ Eagle...
? I'm sorry but I just don't get that, companys are bent on making money, yes, but, lets say fro a second tehre was no ESA, and abandonware or "warez" w/e you want to call it is being distributed everywhere, the games aren't sold anywhere except third party distrbuters like Ebay and small websites, the original company that developed / published / distributed still doesn't make money either way. Now, if people were to take the old games and remake them or something (alter maybe) and sell them, then yes, the companys would be mad, but, even with the ESA this still happens. For example, a "sequal" to system shock 2 is being developed, its not "System Shock 3" because Sony (or who ever) owns the rights to that franchise, but it is almost exactly like it, it just has a different title, it still will be sold, and Sony (or whoever) can do nothing to prevent it.

@ Punch....
Telling somebody to

And Wolfwarrior go shove your head up your ***

is not a very smart idea, especially being as your making a topic to show how your "mature" and "responsible", probabally trying to suck up to the admins or something and gain "VIP" or some special status because of your "mighty and infallible" post count. Instead this topic has turned into a massive flame pit.

[punch999]

@ Moogle OH NOES YOU EXPOSED MY PLAN!!!!!!!!!111111


Actually I was just making a statement on why people shouldn't hate them. I have also been around abandonia enough to also know that being "Mature" isn't what gets you respect here with the admins. I was just opening up a discussion and even if I do change one persons view on the ESA I will at least feel that this topic was useful.

[rlbell]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Mar 6 2006, 07:15 PM
Why are we even having this discusion?

People don't hate ESA because they don't know who they are or what they do, but because they prevent them from getting excelent games (preferably for free). I personally strongly dislike them, because we are not allowed to host many great games because of them, but I still respect them and am doing my best to keep Abandonia safe from another ESA encounter (the one we had was quite enough).

But then again, I also understan the cop who's just doing his job while handing me the traffic ticket, still I'll hate him for it (although he's right and I'm wrong).

So young Alex, care you to explain what thoughts ran through your gulliver while you made with this nasty slovo?

I do not dislike the ESA because they prevent me from downloading games for free. I paid for my copy of Master of Orion, I paid for my copies of XCOM1 & 2, and I would gladly pay retail for a game like Buzz Aldrin's Race into Space (but I am glad that I might be able to download it for free). The ESA sits on alot of properties that could be moneymakers if they would only take the trouble.

There is a very similar situation in the area of boardgames. The Avalon Hill Game Company was bought out by Hasbro, at about the same time as Hasbro bought out Microprose*. Avalon Hill published a large number of boardgames from way back in the sixties that are still sought after by collectors. However, boardgaming as a hobby is very much a niche market, so potential re-issues are beneath Hasbro's radar. That being the case, Hasbro has decided not to republish any of Avalon Hill's old catalog, but they also do not license production to smaller companies at an affordable price. There are the occassonal exceptions, like Multi-Man Publishing's re-issue of Advanced Squad Leader, but for the most part, the titles languish.

I do not complain because the ESA forces me to pay for great games, I complain because the ESA forces me to not play these games. For all that I know, the ESA may sit on classic games to prevent a renaissance of old games killing sales of new games.


* Avalon Hill published a game titled Civilization and Microprose published a computer game called Civilization, but as it is very difficult to confuse a boardgame with a computer game, there was no legal conflict. Later, Avalon Hill developed a computer version of an improved variant of the boardgame called Advanced Civilization, so Microprose sued for dilution of trademark, if not trademark infringement. Not to be outdone, Avalon Hill sued for the exact same reason. Hasbro put an end to both lawsuits by buying both companies. When both suits became Hasbro vs. Hasbro, it was very easy for the plaintiffs to come to a settlement the defendants.

[moogle]

Originally posted by #Alex#@Mar 7 2006, 12:31 AM
@ Moogle OH NOES YOU EXPOSED MY PLAN!!!!!!!!!111111


Actually I was just making a statement on why people shouldn't hate them. I have also been around abandonia enough to also know that being "Mature" isn't what gets you respect here with the admins. I was just opening up a discussion and even if I do change one persons view on the ESA I will at least feel that this topic was useful.

o_0
yeah sure.
Theese kind of topics have been done 2 billion trillion times, as I said before. Making a new one won't change anybodys minds, in fact, as pretty much everybody has said, it just further confirms the obvious. Use common sense, this topic has been done before, this is an abandonware site, even Seb dislikes the ESA, thoose points are all clear as day without being said

1. The ESA isn't created solely for attacking abandonwarez websites. It is for protecting any games from being freely distributed as warez. Not just old games.

No duh, anybody with half a mind, or even with no mind, who has looked at the site and seen "no go" with the "ESA" label behind it is going to know this.

2. The ESA is a organazation that is bent on preserving free speach and the rights of the newest and greatest artform in the world, Gaming! The job of the ESA is to protect and combat the attempts of Hillary Clinton, Joe Leiberman and a lot of other Democrats and a few Republicans bent on restricting the M rated video games that are sold in america.

Actually its not, as stated by the ESA itself

The ESA Foundation is dedicated to supporting positive programs and opportunities that will make a difference in the quality of life, health and welfare of America's youth.

(taken from the ESA website) "Positive programs and opportunities that will make a difference in the quality of life, healf, and welfare of America's youth". Does that sound like GTA to you!?

3. The only reason violent games are still sold in america and many countrys is because of the ESA protecting free speach. If they weren't america would have already of begun restricting m rated games and many countries would have followed suit.

Uh huh...lets look at this shall we. The main reason of the M rated restriction is Hot Cofee yes? Now, Rockstar argues against the restriction and A rating of GTA : SA because while hot coffee is actually in the game, it isn't playable without a third party application / mod / file. Also, many various other well know "gamers" protest about this, ESA may help, but it is hardly the "only reason".

Can we close this now LOL.

[Blood-Pigggy]

Originally posted by moogle@Mar 6 2006, 08:05 PM
2 billion trillion

Labeled :

Thah best numbah in teh worldz0rz!!23@!

ESA Pee-es-ay, they're just some peeps who be doin their jobs.