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[Tulac]

Originally posted by Stroggy@Jun 18 2005, 10:37 PM
And there is nothing "rofl" about people dying, or is there?

Please don't twist my words out, I was laughing at your statement which I guess I misunderstood, not people dying...

[Mahar Vairo]

First, I would like to mention I'm a Muslim and the only thing I don't like of America is the government, and their portrayal of Islam.

As for people I try not judge them until after I get to know them.

I would like to mention a few things so:

In the Islamic history there's an incident mention about our prophet and his trip to a place called Taif. At the time Taif had three leaders, and the prophet went there to spread Islam. The first chief refused to even see the prophet, the second was rude to him, third said if he was a real messenger of god he did not want to offend him, but if he was a lair he didn't want to follow him.

So after failing to make an impression on the leaders, the prophet decided to talk to people. Not only did they reject his message but they ran him out of town and sent their servants to pelt him with stones till he bled. It is said he bled so much that his shoes filled with blood and when he got out of town he collapsed.

When he regained conscousness the angel Gabriel(english name) was there with another angel. He said that God knew what the people Taif had done and if our prophet wished he would have the angel in command of the two mountains surrounding Taif crush them between the mountains.

But our prophet said that if the people of Taif did not accept Islam maybe their decendants might. He then asked God for forgiveness for his inability to convince the people of Taif of the good of Islam. He then prayed for the people of Taif's forgiveness and for them to become muslims.

This shows the mercy of our prophet in the face adversity.

Now you don't have to believe this, but this is what I learnt of Islam and anyone claiming to be a muslim will not and should not be blowing people up.

A lot of things I learnt in Islam make me certain that these terrorists are not true muslims

For instance if you shave your beard it is like sword wound to the prophet for every hair removed. Anyone claiming to be muslim will not shave their beard even even if it means death.

Also suicide is a sin an a hypocrytical act in Islam, anyone committing suicide in Islam has almost no chance of going to heaven.
In the early days of Islam when the muslims were outnumbered it may have seemed like suicide to fight, but there was always a possiblity of living and the muslims even won.

I could probably go on like this, but I better not.
This should be enough for those that are willing to hear my point of view.

Thank you and :bye: for now.

[Stroggy]

Can you honestly say you didn't understand the message Playbahnosh wanted to write due to his inadequate use of English?

it was more the context than his English:
Now I don't want to get into an argument but let's take a look:

they deserve to lose people to the guerillas

And those wo voulanteerly fight there just to kill people, they deserve to die

obsessed patriotic idiots who go to iraq to slaughter innocent people, who are just defending their country

nowhere did he state he was talking about

people killed by misguided missiles or stray bullets.

He was clearly talking about people who are

defending their country

[/quote]
Thus it is simple, and indeed logical,to suppose he is talking to people who are fighting to defend their country (since the casual iraqi citizens aren't fighting the americans) and was thus referring to the guerillas.

Now I can accept if he didn't mean this, but I cannot accept that I am being called dumb or petty for not understanding it.

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Mahar Vairo@Jun 18 2005, 11:43 PM
In the Islamic history there's an incident mention about our prophet and his trip to a place called Taif.

This is a story with a very good moral - and obviously a religions story.
The problem here is this:
All religions were basically made to spread the word of god (one or another) and the word of god is the word of wisedom, peace, harmony among people...
But there have been so many people misusing religion - it all got perverted.

I mentioned the story of Jan Hus before, but here goes.
He was trying to reform the chatolic church in the 13th century (some 250 years before Martin Luther). And when they cought him they tied him to a post and wanted to burn him.
There was an old lady, who heard they captured a heretic and wish to burn him. So she came to the town where Hus was tied to a post and placed some more fire-wood under his feet (thinking she did a noble deed in helping a heretic burn). Hus only said: "Sancta Simplicitae - blesed ignorance."

Unfortunately there are far more people like the old woman then there are people like Taif.

[Tulac]

Well it's obvious that in Iraqi conflict there was some major brainwashing on both sides...
But I wonder why doesn't the US attack Turkmenistan? They also have a dictator there much like Sadam, and democracy is needed, but instead they accompany their embassy on expensive dinner?
Oh wait Exxon(or some other US company), is exploiting oil there and building pipelines, no need for democracy then...

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Tulac@Jun 18 2005, 10:54 PM

But I wonder why doesn't the US attack Turkmenistan?

Would you support a war on Turkmenistan, then?

[Tulac]

No, but I just meant to show the hipocracy of US politics, they attacked Iraq, supposedly for democracy, why don't they spread freedom to definetly weakly armed(no nuke threats or whatever, unlike in North Korea) Turkmenistan?
And then someone still claims it wasn't war for oil, pheesh...

[Playbahnosh]

First of all: Please stop arguing about how do we don't understand each other , becouse that's just stupid. Please stop! We understanded each other earlier, how we don't now? Please do not do any flaming here or elsewhere. Can't we just get along? Come on! k:

@Mahar Vairo

I understand your point. We certainly need someone from the other side of the conflict too. I see, so your religion prohibites the aimless fighting and suicide.
But what about jihad? The holy war, or something like that? If I'm correct that means, muslims must spread the islam religion forcefully, with weapons and self-sacreficing too if necessary. Just correct me if I'm wrong. No other religion has a lecture like this.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to hurt anybody's religious feeleings, but as I see this is just not right at all. Yeah, the crusades was something like this too, and as a former chatolic (I don't belive in religion but thats another story) I admit that was wrong too...

I think no religion should be a cover for some power hungry people...

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Tulac@Jun 18 2005, 10:59 PM
why don't they spread freedom to definetly weakly armed(no nuke threats or whatever, unlike in North Korea) Turkmenistan?

But then they would be critisized for not taking on another country.

Can't we just get along? Come on!

I am sorry, I truly am, I want to keep this thread free of namecalling and prejudice, but if you are going to say I "played dumb" just so i could drive through an argument, I have to respond to such an accusation, no flaming intended of coarse.

[Tulac]

So they shouldn't have attacked Iraq in the first place...(which was my point from the first post)