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[taikara]

I'm sort of wondering why anybody would really think they had any right over my body... and no offense intended, but especially men, who will never even have the possibility of carrying a child.

I'm personally don't follow Western religion. I don't really buy into the God-driven arguments that abortion is a sin. And believe it or not, choosing to abort carries its own very heavy consequences, and is not something that can be done lightly. A mother who chooses to abort will have to live with the emotional consequences. Do any of you actually know someone who has chosen to have an abortion?

If I was raped and became pregnant, I would have an abortion. I wouldn't want a constant reminder of the event, and I don't think I would be emotionally stable enough after such an occurance to be a good mother.

If I was being careful, and an "accident" occured, I would probably abort. If I wasn't financially and emotionally prepared to provide a good home, I wouldn't want to inflict my instabilities on my child, as I personally believe that is one of the largest problems in our society today - incredibly bad parenting because people who aren't prepared to have and raise children still end up doing so.

If I was being stupid, and an "accident" occured, I would probably abort. For the same reasons.

In addition, I don't believe in adoption. I wouldn't go through nine months of carrying and bonding with a child, and then the pain of childbirth, to turn my child over to someone I don't even know. Above all, adoption is a business, and as such, you can't always trust that the outcome will be best for the child.

But seeing as how you sort of have to have sex to be put in the position that you have to decide, I don't think I have to worry about any of that at the moment. :P

I guess my bottom line is, regardless of what any of you believe is right or wrong, or how you choose to live your life, why should you try to force your beliefs or lifestyle on people who might not have the same beliefs as you?

If you give all people the right to choose, then you as an individual still have the choice to not abort. Nobody would ever force you to do so... but if you take away the choice, you're forcing people to do what you want them to do with their lives based on your beliefs, not theirs.

[Puffin]

Ok, I was reading some replys, then I came to Tai's. It's right out of my heart.

And Triton: All parents say "No sex before marriage?"
Weird. I don't know anybody who has parents that say that.
You see, we're actually not all catholics.

ALMENN HEGNINGARLÖG

202. gr. Hver sem hefur samr??i e?a önnur kynfer?ismök vi? barn, yngra en 14 ára, skal s?ta fangelsi allt a? 12 árum. Önnur kynfer?isleg áreitni en sú sem greinir í 1. mgr. var?ar fangelsi allt a? 4 árum.
Hver sem me? blekkingum, gjöfum e?a á annan hátt t?lir ungmenni yngra en 18 ára til samr??is e?a annarra kynfer?ismaka skal s?ta fangelsi allt a? 4 árum.
Hver sem grei?ir barni e?a ungmenni yngra en 18 ára endurgjald gegn ?ví a? hafa vi? ?a? samr??i e?a önnur kynfer?ismök skal s?ta fangelsi allt a? 2 árum.

This here is a small part of the laws in Iceland. Says that people 14 year old kids are allowed to have sex.
If someone older than 18 "seduces a teenager under 18 years of age to have sex or other sexual activities shall be imprisoned for up to 4 years."

Maybe not 100% on topic, but just so you know, 14 year old kids aren't allowed to get married. You have to be 18 in Iceland.

[Chuck the plant]

Originally posted by Triton@Sep 20 2005, 03:26 AM
In modern Western culture, however, one really can't make it on his (using neuter terms, stupid English) own unless he first completes twelve years of basic study and probably a few years of college in order to land a decent job.

Again, man-made conventions, not natural laws.

(which is hypocrisy in itself; why is it wrong to have more than one sex partner if you charge for the sex, but it's perfectly fine if you do it for free?).

I know this is not aimed at me, but: Whoever's supposed to have said THAT? :blink:

Children are unable to make informed decisions and are short sighted.

Goes for all children and suddenly stops with their 18th birthday... on the other hand, "adults" can NEVER be short-sighted or immature... How I love generalizations...

Take Nietzsche for example: sure, he didn't buy into the whole religion thing, but that doesn't mean he condoned a life of drunken debauchery either.

Reading through the old testament, it occurs to me that a live of drunken debauchery was perfectly fine for the old hebrews... as long as they annihilated some other tribe before that... :angel:

When I argue about things, I tend to leave my religious views out of it, which is why I'm a reluctant proponent of abortion.* Usually in a moral discussion it's the trendy anti-Christians are the ones who bring up religion as if it is the golden argument against morality.

Since your whole moral-system is based on christianity (as is the moral system of most people of the so-called "western world"... or let's rather say the "western world" itself), I think it would prove to be rather hard to keep religion out of this...

Go back under your bridge, troll. I am now less likely to take anything you say seriously.

Well, I think this is a fair question. You see, it's rather hard to have a serious discussion about certain topics with people that base their knowledge on second-hand-wisdom and not on personal experiences. Would you take advice on how to repair your car's engine by someone who doesn't even know where the frontside on a screwdriver is? Would you take advice on which multimdeia-device to buy next from an Amish? :angel:

Besides, I didn't even think you were likely to take anything seriously that is NOT your opinion in the first place, so... :whistle:

[Havell]

Originally posted by Triton@Sep 20 2005, 04:26 AM
Just because something comes from religion doesn't mean you should discard it immediately. A lot of religious morals come from common sense, which is something a lot of Enlightenment thinker wannabes lack these days. Take Nietzsche for example: sure, he didn't buy into the whole religion thing, but that doesn't mean he condoned a life of drunken debauchery either.

Nietzsche also said "Morality is the herd instinct of humanity".

Besides, it's truw that extensive sex-education and liberal attitudes to contraception and sex itself is a good thing. Take The Netherlands, they have the one of the most liberal attides to sex in the world, an extremely good program of sex education (ie, not just "DON'T DO IT OR YOU'LL GET AN STD AND PREGNANT AND RUIN YOUR LIFE FOREVER!") and a very low age of consent, they also have one of the very lowest rates of teenage pregnancy in Europe.

Also, like it has been said, not all people under 18 are too stupid to make their own informed decisions and not everybody who is over 18 is mature and responsible.

[Fruit Pie Jones]

Originally posted by Chuck the plant@Sep 20 2005, 08:23 AM
Well, I think this is a fair question. You see, it's rather hard to have a serious discussion about certain topics with people that base their knowledge on second-hand-wisdom and not on personal experiences.

Show of hands: Who here has actually had an abortion? OK, you folks can stay. The rest of you are no longer permitted to post in this thread, apparently, due to lack of personal experience with the topic. Don't let the door hit ya. :bye:

Oh. I guess I have to go too.

[Chuck the plant]

Originally posted by Fruit Pie Jones@Sep 20 2005, 05:41 PM
Show of hands:* Who here has actually had an abortion?* OK, you folks can stay.* The rest of you are no longer permitted to post in this thread, apparently, due to lack of personal experience with the topic.* Don't let the door hit ya.* :bye:

Oh.* I guess I have to go too.

Well, a little experience with the topic would maybe result in a view on the topic that's less demagogic and dogmatic and closer orientated on actual life-likeness... :angel:

It's easy to judge from a high horse if you never had to go the way yourself...

EDIT: And to answer my own question - Concerning this topic (and many others), I will always be likely to give greater weight to the opinion of someone who actually HAS experience than that of someone who just presses some ready-made "moral values" for the so-called "moral majority"... Life isn't just black and white, right and wrong and most certainly not full of easy solutions. And sitting on a high horse can result in a deep fall...

[laiocfar]

I'm sort of wondering why anybody would really think they had any right over my body... and no offense intended, but especially men, who will never even have the possibility of carrying a child.

I agree with you in most but the problem, it´s that if the unborn thing is cosidered human life, it must be protected by laws. It´s insane to me, consider the unborn like human life.

Then it's their fault for having sex in the first place

????, sex isn´t only for kids.

Just because something comes from religion doesn't mean you should discard it immediately. A lot of religious morals come from common sense, which is something a lot of Enlightenment thinker wannabes lack these days.

In most of religions (not the budish one), you belibe that a simply book, bible, like many others, is the word of god... and this is common sense? religious moral doesn´t admit changes becausa, god can´t change his mind. DISCARD ALL THAT COME FROM RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES.

Children under 18 are incapable of making their own decisions.

False, children can be adult 14-18 or children...(translate impuberes) 0-14.
The first one are, acoording to law, completly incapables. So they can´t buy anything like candies or similars. So they are little capable but laws doesn´t care about this.
Anyway, if we have the problem of teenage pregnacy and talk about abortion as solution or not, you can´t answer that under 21, are minors so they can´t do anything.

[Blood-Pigggy]

Don't discard religion, even though you may not agree with their views with sentient beings, it is highly recommended that you look into their morals and ideals.
Mainly acceptance and order, without those it's essentially a anarchy that'll lead to no good.

Taking that into consideration I doubt laws should restrict what one should to one's own body, as that unborn child is essentially a part of you busy making it's way on it's own, to one day be released from your bowels and bring it's terror upon the world! :crazy:

[PrejudiceSucks]

Yeah... urmm... broad sweeping statements don't really have any place in a discussion like this. Whilst it's easy to say that anyone under 18 is childish and everyone over that is is not, it's not really very close to the truth.

For example, I have friends who are about my age that act like twelve year olds. I also have friends that think that they've just passed thier eighteenth. I am merely a world-weary fifteen year old, but then since I'm at about the age (in the UK anyway) that a lot of people have sex for the first time I believe my views should be heard.

The laws in England about abortion are basically that women get the choice over whether to abort or not, there are a whole load of reasons but about 90% of women say it's beacuse it will make them upset. Fair enough, in my opinion. I personally think that men should get some kind of input, but to be honest it's not going to massively affect my life.

Originally posted by taikara+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (taikara)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In addition, I don't believe in adoption. I wouldn't go through nine months of carrying and bonding with a child, and then the pain of childbirth, to turn my child over to someone I don't even know. Above all, adoption is a business, and as such, you can't always trust that the outcome will be best for the child.[/b]

I find this to be a highly ignorant statement. If you don't want kids, don't breed them; if you don't want to be raped, don't skank yourself out and avoid being alone and take self-defense lessons. Not all adoption agencies are businesses either, but I guess you didn't do your homework long enough to find that out.

<!--QuoteBegin-Puffin
And Triton: All parents say "No sex before marriage?"
Weird. I don't know anybody who has parents that say that.
You see, we're actually not all catholics.[/quote]

As I said before, the trendies are the ones who bring up religion in moral discussions.

Now, let's pretend that I actually am taking your comment seriously for a minute. I know more parents who are athiest or non-Christian that have daughters well enough to know that they would do everything in their power to prevent their children from having sex. It has nothing to do with religion. I guess once you grow up and stop vamping yourself long enough to have kids and raise them from infancy you will look at them differently than you would some random kids that you don't know.

ALMENN HEGNINGARLÖG

202. gr. Hver sem hefur samr??i e?a önnur kynfer?ismök vi? barn, yngra en 14 ára, skal s?ta fangelsi allt a? 12 árum. Önnur kynfer?isleg áreitni en sú sem greinir í 1. mgr. var?ar fangelsi allt a? 4 árum.
Hver sem me? blekkingum, gjöfum e?a á annan hátt t?lir ungmenni yngra en 18 ára til samr??is e?a annarra kynfer?ismaka skal s?ta fangelsi allt a? 4 árum.
Hver sem grei?ir barni e?a ungmenni yngra en 18 ára endurgjald gegn ?ví a? hafa vi? ?a? samr??i e?a önnur kynfer?ismök skal s?ta fangelsi allt a? 2 árum.

Blah blah funny words from a dead language.

Originally posted by Puffin
This here is a small part of the laws in Iceland. Says that people 14 year old kids are allowed to have sex.
If someone older than 18 "seduces a teenager under 18 years of age to have sex or other sexual activities shall be imprisoned for up to 4 years."

What does the law say about children obeying their parents?

Originally posted by Chuck the Plant+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chuck the Plant)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Triton

In modern Western culture, however, one really can't make it on his (using neuter terms, stupid English) own unless he first completes twelve years of basic study and probably a few years of college in order to land a decent job.

Again, man-made conventions, not natural laws.[/b][/quote]

Again, another instance of selective reading. Read the part you edited out again. Yeah, feel stupid now, eh? Why don't you move out of the house at 14 and live on your own while working, paying your bills, and making sure you have enough to eat? It's impossible in the States.

Goes for all children and suddenly stops with their 18th birthday... on the other hand, "adults" can NEVER be short-sighted or immature... How I love generalizations...

Stop editing out what I say! I said that during adolescense the brain develops along with the rest of the body and does not fully mature until the mid to late 20s. An adult at this point is more than capable of thinknig for himself than a 16 year old child. You're just trolling again.

Originally posted by Chuck the Plant
Since your whole moral-system is based on christianity (as is the moral system of most people of the so-called "western world"... or let's rather say the "western world" itself), I think it would prove to be rather hard to keep religion out of this...

Who said my moral system is based only on Christianity? I have studied many of the world's major religions and a number of philosophers, and I base my thinking on what makes the most sense from what I have learned from them.

Originally posted by Chuck the Plant+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chuck the Plant)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Besides, I didn't even think you were likely to take anything seriously that is NOT your opinion in the first place, so... whistling.gif[/b]

If I didn't take any of this seriously, then why would I have taken the time to develop a series of logical arguments against what trendy people think? I don't take you seriously anymore because you edited my comments for your own purposes and because you are a troll. Good day, sirrah.

<!--QuoteBegin-R Havell
Nietzsche also said "Morality is the herd instinct of humanity".[/quote]

So? Even if the world's moral standards permitted parents raising their children to have sex with anything that moves, then that is also morality.

Originally posted by laiocifar+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (laiocifar)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In most of religions (not the budish one), you belibe that a simply book, bible, like many others, is the word of god... and this is common sense? religious moral doesn´t admit changes becausa, god can´t change his mind. DISCARD ALL THAT COME FROM RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES.[/b]

Ignorant. Not all Christians take the Bible word for word simply because it is foolish to do so. Christianity (or at least the Catholic sects) is also based on tradition and teaching.

Originally posted by blood-pigggy@
Don't discard religion, even though you may not agree with their views with sentient beings, it is highly recommended that you look into their morals and ideals.
Mainly acceptance and order, without those it's essentially a anarchy that'll lead to no good.

Taking that into consideration I doubt laws should restrict what one should to one's own body, as that unborn child is essentially a part of you busy making it's way on it's own, to one day be released from your bowels and bring it's terror upon the world! wacko.gif

I find it hard to accept that several major world religions have similar moral views on things like murder, cheating, and other things society considers crimes, people think they are wrong about everything pertaining to sexuality. How can religions be right in saying that murder, theft, and things like that, but not right in saying that people should wait until they are married?

<!--QuoteBegin-PrejudiceSucks
Yeah... urmm... broad sweeping statements don't really have any place in a discussion like this. Whilst it's easy to say that anyone under 18 is childish and everyone over that is is not, it's not really very close to the truth.[/quote]

You seem to have skipped over the parts where I said that adults are more likely to make good choices (or at least carefully planned ones) than developing teens.