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[gorkur]

Ok, I was going to stay out of this discussion since I have pretty strong oppinions of this issue and I don't want to get banned :P

But I really can't shut up after what I've been reading here today! The stupidity that I've seen that was hopefully not written but puked onto the keyboard :ranting:

Scary thing about rape is that in *most* cases it's someone the victim knows and trusts, so the rapist is violating the victims trust (gained through friendship), restricting her/his freedom of both movement and speech and expression (no really does mean no!) and if you think this can't damage a person mentally then you've got to get your head checked!

Note that I haven't mentioned the possibilities of physical damage and disease infections yet, but how would you feel if you got infected with AIDS in a bar fight for example?

My advice is get your head out of your arse and try thinking in a non-methaine polluted area. [/ranting]

[marko river]

Let's go back to the topic right???? Open a new topic for discussing raping or such.


Normally, i'm all against the abortion. I have to say "NORMALLY" because i don't see how something like abortion can be normal thing.

I'm not calling abortion the murder just because i want my words to be stronger. Let's face it, it is the murder. It is begining of life inside female body and it is not normal to terminate it just because it is in the begining.
What's the difference between abortion and dumping a new born baby in the dumpster?
Answer: You don't need to listen to a baby cry, you don't have to bother in carriing it inside you for months, you don't really have to do anything because others will, you only have to pay for it.

So abortion is much less complicated. Now all girls are gonna say that i overreacted. First of all, this difference IS true, and second, I sure as hell will overreact. I can't even imagine that my girlfriend remain pregnant with me and chooses to do abortion. To abort my own child. Our child!!!!!!

What are you people talking?????? Abortion is better if parents are too young, too unressponsible (if that is the word), too afraid, so let's just abort. You can't give him good life so abort. And in most cases you say good life instead of enough money.

There are too many children for adoption??? SO???!!!! Let's just kill embrio. Why don't we kill all children for adoption. Nobody loves them anyway, they are left alone, so let's just kill them. What's a big deal? It's only several years older than the embrio, but it is the same kid right??

[Chuck the plant]

Originally posted by marko_river@Sep 21 2005, 01:22 PM
It's only several years older than the embrio, but it is the same kid right??

Completely wrong. You know perfectly well that nobody is born "readymade". An Embryo does not have things as "awareness" (in a TRUE sense, I'm not talking about automated reactions towards certain stimuli), and that's what makes the real difference to me (and many other people). Before the 4th month, it's not even started to develop distinguishable features. The main misconception many people have about pregnancy is that there is already a fully developed little person inside the womb. This is however not true until up to the 6th month (when abortion is fobidden anyway in most cases), and even THEN the development is only "complete" in a sense that we have a clearly distinguishable small human being. Before that, an embryo develops out of ONE little cell. I dare anyway to explain to me in detail what we see on a picture of an embryo in the 2nd or 3rd month. You'll have a hard time figuring ANYTHING out. And as I said, the "mental" development starts even later.

That's also why your "throw the baby in a dumpster"-deadbeat-"arguement" is not even remotely an arguement at all, but just plain wrong (in terms of logically compelling nature).

On a sidenote: it always puzzles me why some people are so violently fighting for even greater over-population on this planet, when the world community can't even take proper care of the people that are already there...

[Kon-Tiki]

It's not just that. The way some kids're raised makes them better off not having been born at all. It might sound cruel, but it's how things are. It's nothing against the kid. I myself respect the choice of abortion, as it shows enough insight in the parents' own skills and situation to be able to give the kid what it needs and to raise it as it should. It's usually those that aren't mentally fit to raise kids, that should abort their kids, and usually don't. I've known people who were beaten to pulp by their father, so much so that he broke the toes of their little four-year old sister, and would've continued beating the kids if she didn't stand up for it. Father was the central key in that area's drug traffic, messed their older bro's mind up to join him and think like him, making their mom and those two kids' lives a living hell. 't Is in such cases that it would be better, when getting pregnant, to decide the environment you have to offer, isn't good enough to raise a child, and in that case, to abort. These people didn't choose it, with the mental consequences for these girls as a result (Now don't get me wrong, I fully support them living, and think they're great persons), and they've had the luck of having a mom strong enough to move away from that guy, protecting her children.

Anyways, what I'm saying, is that the choice of abortion's got to be thought through carefully, as it has consequences for both your partner, the kid and yourself. I myself would have a hard time living with having to abort a child of mine, even if I'm a guy, but I know the emotional strain must be even bigger for the woman carrying it. Too bad that those that shouldn't have children due to going to mistreat them, aren't mature enough to realize this. If they did realize it and'd concider abortion for it, they would actually care 'bout the child, which'd mean they wouldn't mistreat it.

This all's just a part of all the factors that play in it, and, in my eyes, the most involved parts. There're alot of cases in which there's just no financial support for the kid (can't raise a kid if you can barely feed yourself, to put it crudely), or cases where the kid'd be a constant reminder of something that the parent/parents prefer not to remember (which'll fire back at the kid in most cases), and alot of other cases. Yet in all these, it'll still bring quite an emotional strain for the parents. On the other side, there'll always be abuse of it, but that shouldn't keep it from being allowed. You'll always have jerks'n bitches going: "You break up with me? Fine, I don't want your child anymore then. I'm going to abort it!" That's only a small part compared to the ones that should actually be allowed to abort a child.

[marko river]

What keeps amaizing me is the fact that generally women support abortion.

Stupid men will never have the feeling of the new life cration in themselve and women ARE FOR abortion!!!??? Instead of men who don't give a damn about girl or baby (and there are people like that unfortunally).

I discussed about his a lot with girls and i always found the same reaction: how can yoy tell what is good or not, how can you tell what is better for the girl and so on. Also there are already mentioned stuff like baby can ruin my life, i'm not preapared, i'm afraid, how it's gonna live....

Pathetic.

First of all, it's not better to abort, it is also not better not to be pregnant, only in the proper tim right? Well, if a high-school girl remains pregnant, i don't think it means that her life would be the same like in the torture chamber. It will be harder but it surely doesn't mean hell. You can finish the school while your parents watch and help.
If you can't keep it, or simple don't want it, born it and give it for adoption. I'm 100% sure that he/she would like better to bel left alone instead of removed while he was at the begining of his life.
And what is the meaning of this "it is only alive a little"???????????

What is wrong with adopting the kid?? There is a great chanse that its life will be bad? So it's better not to have a life at all, now when it already exists but only it is still inside of you?
Why don't we ban all poor people for having kids? Let's have terms about conditions like money and house that two need to have in order to have kids. Death is better than hard life. How many of you that are not pleased with your life hate your parents for not aborting you??????????

Taikara and other girls that think that if we ban abortion will loose their right do decide what to do with their body: it is not your body anymore and we don't discuss about your body. It is a new body inside. (Taikara, don't think that i have something against you)
I met girls who had abortion. Some don't care and some are comletely messed up. Well, is that a plus for abortion or against?
Why is so hard to have a baby and give it for adoption if you don;t want it, but is fine to kill it???
Did you ever thought that some guy can leave you when he finds out that you had abortion?????

Even if there are some problems i don't think that abortion should be made. Even if the girl was raped. It is her child too. And there are women that born and kept children that their rapist made. Why????? Because it is their child and she's gonna teach him not to be maniac. It is INCREDIBLY hard, but she was raped, no easy way out of that. And if you abort to forget the rape, well you shouldn't forget the rape, otherwise it will haunt you. You must face the horror you survived. Have the child and give it for adoption if you don't want it and let him/her know how he/she came to this world. And it is not so easy for me to say something like that just because i'm a male you know. I've seen hell around me.

If i am the ruler of the world don't know what would i do with abortion. Why? Because of you people. If we ban abortion, guess how many ilegal abortion services will appear. Also it is stupid just to teach kids and girls what is a safe sex, but what to do if girl remain pregnant. And I can't say "if they made a mistake" so girl remained pregnant. How can you call a baby mistake. Also, how can i say that i live in country where abortion is normal stuff without dying in shame?????

But you people discuss me. You even have second thoughts about it. Personally, it would please me more to kill both of "unpreapared parents" who want abortion after baby is born and baby can have their parent's property when it is 18. Then, his/her life will be much better after he/she finishes school.
It is much better than letting this demons that called themselves humans to kill their own unborn children. Much, much better. Maybe there would be more good people instead of milions of demented ones.

And i don't care if you find this flaming and ban me from forum. If i flamed people that are for abortion, then it's because i don't want to kill them. And i must say that some persons that had abortion are very close to me, one of them is also something special to me. But some things are not to be discussed.

[marko river]

Can't agree with you guys.

If the embrio is still unformed, that doesn't mean it is not alive. If child is born, but it is not fully developed nor physically nor psychologiacly, would it be ok to kill it?

Kon-Tiki, your example showes that society should care more about haow parents treat thei kids. But this depends of common people. If father is beating his family, neighbour should report And country must react properly. I don't think that it is better to abort just in case.

And Chuck, I don't think that we should kill unborn children because planet is over-populated. I can't believe you said something like that.

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Chuck the plant@Sep 21 2005, 03:55 PM
Completely wrong. You know perfectly well that nobody is born "readymade". An Embryo does not have things as "awareness"

I've decided some time ago to stop comenting here, because I felt I said all I had to say, but I must comment this one!

If that's a reason to allow abortion - then you can easily dump a baby in a trash can as well. It hasn't got self-awareness until it reaches a certain age (a few weeks). And that would also mean that it wouldn't be a crime killing mentaly retarded people - they aren't all aware of themselves either. And why bother helping people in koma then? They're not aware of life either.

[Chuck the plant]

But some things are not to be discussed.

Because you obviously CAN'T discuss them. You're just forcing your "moral values".
Otherwise you would've been answering some of the points that were raised after your last post. Instead you decided to take the easy way out and rant completely off (current)
topic with the conclusion that YOU would be holding something like an "eternal truth" LOL
Newsflash: There IS no such thing. Not in the REAL world.

And as hard as you might find it to believe: A man will INDEED never be able to fully comprehend what a pregnant woman comprehends. I don't know what is so "pathetic" about this obvious fact. What really gets my goat are people like you who not only think they know everything, but that they know everything better then those people who actually have experience on the topic. This is the worst kind of arrogance.

EDIT @ marko & Seb:
Congratulations, you two. Now just keep picking out ONE single arguement of the many that were given and tell that this can't be "the only reason" without considering all the other examples. That way this threat will maybe grow to an enormous lenght :w00t:

I never said that the lack of awareness is the ONLY reason. The same goes for over-population (which wasn't even a pro-abortion-arguement, but just to show the bigotry of many "pro lifers" that actually don't have a problem with 10.000 children starving in Africa each day... shouldn't THEY be even more cared for, since they're already there?).

2nd EDIT:
Can't agree with you guys.

If the embrio is still unformed, that doesn't mean it is not alive. If child is born, but it is not fully developed nor physically nor psychologiacly, would it be ok to kill it?

Well, "alive" certainly can't be THE universal arguement in a world that keeps raising life just to consume it. In enormous masses, that is.

Kon-Tiki, your example showes that society should care more about haow parents treat thei kids. But this depends of common people. If father is beating his family, neighbour should report And country must react properly. I don't think that it is better to abort just in case.

Should. Must. etc. As I already said often enough: Sadly, the world just doesn't work that easy. Neither does the "american dream". What you're describing is an ideal view of the world. In such an ideal world, there most probably wouldn't even be need for abortion, because everyone would be more then responsible enough. Everyone would be perfectly aware of the consequences of one's doing. People would care about each other. But THIS world, the REAL world, is nowhere like this. This world here, in large parts, is a sick, twisted, selfish, undereducated and moronic pile of sh*t. And in most cases, having your baby born right into the middle of it won't make this pile of sh*t smell like baby-oil, but just have your baby smell like sh*t as well.

[Kon-Tiki]

Originally posted by marko_river@Sep 21 2005, 04:18 PM
(...)
Kon-Tiki, your example showes that society should care more about haow parents treat thei kids. But this depends of common people. If father is beating his family, neighbour should report And country must react properly. I don't think that it is better to abort just in case.
(...)

Well, in my example, the neighbours either didn't know 'bout it, or were friends of the father, part of the drug traffic course. People that don't know 'bout it, can't report it, and people who think the same like the father, won't see anything wrong. If, by occasion, somebody did know there was something wrong, they probably wouldn't dare to report anything, as it'd get them into the muck as well instead of getting that mother and her kids out of it. That's how things usually work. They should report it's something that can only be done in perfect circumstances, and that's a very rare thing to happen.

[PrejudiceSucks]

Seb, in the UK only about 1% of abortions are carried out due to there being possible chances of mental illness in the child. Hence that comment is a bit pointless.

And chuck - exactly. People being born into this world are not exactly being born into a wonderous place. There are countries that take everything and other countries where the people are being killed every day because of vendettas between the leaders.

Also, abortions are not carried out (again the UK) after 24 (I think) weeks unless the mother's life is in danger, it will damage the other children in the family or the child will be born with a physical or mental handicap and the mother says that she will abort because of this.

Also, people don't just magically 'get over' rape just like that. It can take many, many years to resolve problems like that even in your mind and some people will just never forget it. Also, rapists are not particualarly good father material (obviously, a female rapist would have the choice of whether to abort or not, but in all likelihood they probably would) and trying to convince them to father a baby would be easier said that done.