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[Lonely Vazdru]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Sep 22 2005, 02:09 PM
It's because I'm convinced people are too obsesed with sex and shouldn't have so much of it (at least not if they aren't prepared to take the full consequences - and giving birth is one of them). There is no need for teenagers (especially ages between 12-17) to even have sex - yet more and more of them have it - because they don't need to carry the consequences. I'm also very much against people treating sex as nothing more then a pleasurable excercize (regarthless of the age group) - and they too are taking comfort in knowing they won't have to deal with the side effects.

Wow ! Where do you live , Sounds like an exiting place ! Can i move in ?
Honestly i think people don't have enough sex, and i blame sexual frustration (male mainly) for 95% of the evil in this sad old world. And i honestly don't think there are that many girls who use abortion as a convient way of having sex without having to worry about anything. There maybe some girls irresponsible enough to act like that, but i bet there aren't enough of them to seriously increase the number of worldwide abortions. And i fail to see the point of screeming murder when an embryo is sent back to oblivion when whole continents die without anyone being even a bit annoyed. There are to many people on the planet as it is, and there are way to many sad people. Why increase the burden ? Un unwanted child is a serious occurence that can endanger the well being and happiness of many (first and foremost the child himself), so abortion seems like the lesser of two evil in many cases. It is of course easier to point at and identify, but it is definitively less "evil" than many unhappy, irresponsible families who are nothing more than cannon fodder for the "matrix" a.k.a. the modern society of "let's consume all we can and party on the ashes !"
So i, for one, would rather live in a world where people have more sex, brains enough to avoid any unwanted pregnancies (come on guys, it's easy enough) and so only have to use abortion in a minimum of cases. But that world will not come to pass if we breed like bunny rabbits, and ignorant children are supposed to raise their own kids.


EDIT : And come on ! Sex IS a pleasurable exercise. You may need to see more than that in sex (and there is sometimes more) but it's good enough as it is. It's the closest to magic i ever found (But i keep lookin' ). It can happen between completely unmatched people and yet when it works it works wonders !
It beats the crap out of music, movies, sports, even books. The legendary male friendship itself can be seriously endangered by some real good sex !

[taikara]

Originally posted by Sebatianos+Sep 22 2005, 12:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sebatianos @ Sep 22 2005, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
So you turned into a male agian... Weren't you a female once? And I know I asked you this already, because I'm more then sure you've been changing the gender in your profile...[/b]

IIRC, he admittedly accidentally made his profile female when he registered, and then made everyone aware of that fact when he realized he had done so. Imho, it's rude to accuse someone of doing something like that without any proof of subversive behavior. Perhaps you could have asked privately before accusing publically?

Originally posted by Seb@
Why should a future human life be killed, to support her lust?

I find this insulting. In my experience, lust is one thing, and it only requires only one person. Sex, the actual act that leads to pregnancy, requires two people. And if you haven't noticed, your gender is the one that typically pushes my gender to cross the line from simple lust into the actual act. Not always, obviously, but I know that almost all the guys I've known are ridiculously pushy when it comes to that sort of thing.

If I didn't really want to have sex in the first place (believe it or not, it's quite common for a woman to not really want to have sex, but end up doing so because of the pressure she's being put under by her boyfriend), then I definitely don't really want to have a child by that person.

This isn't really a black-and-white area. Maybe it is for guys, who seem to either have sex, or not have sex... but for women, there are many different shades of gray involved in the process of deciding to have sex.

<!--QuoteBegin-Seb
So abortion will become an exception - not the rule! And people (both women and men) would not take it too easily![/quote]

You mean, abortion will remain an exception. It's really not as common as people here seem to believe. Most accidental pregnancies are nulled by birth control. Abortion really is a last resort, usually for people in a desperate situation.

Out of curiosity, I'm wondering what people think of the Morning After pill. You know, the one women take after they've been raped, or when they realize there's been an accident during sex.

[Tom Henrik]

So you turned into a male agian... Weren't you a female once? And I know I asked you this already, because I'm more then sure you've been changing the gender in your profile...

Let's stick to the actual topic at hand, shall we?

My opinion still stands. I am against abortion! There are cases where I would recomend abortion myself (and I named a few at the very begining of this thread - like rape), but those are the exceptions to the rule.

So your opinion is that abortions should be illegal, yet legal. That's kinda hard to do.

My main objection is to the use of abortion as a prevention of the side effects of sex. I think that having an abortion simply because you don't want to have a baby, but you couldn't withhold yourself from having sex - it NOT acceptable. If a girl had to have sex (even with contraception) and still got pregnent - she should not be alowed to terminate that embrio. Why should a future human life be killed, to support her lust?

You are straying off topic again. The topic is about whether or not abortions should be legal or not, not why the girl had sex. Your statement says that you will not allow a girl to have abortions as it kills a future human being. True, but have you ever thought about the future? Ever considered living an unwanted life? And adoption isn't the perfect answer to unwanted children. Children put away for adoption doesn't automatically recieve a new family. It takes time, and during that time the kid is alone. And unless the kid is cute and lovely, no-one will adopt him/her. If a child's future looks a grim one, it shouldn't been born in the first place.

I know - you'll say that it's easy for me to say, because I never will get pregnent. But that's got nothing to do with it.
It's because I'm convinced people are too obsesed with sex and shouldn't have so much of it (at least not if they aren't prepared to take the full consequences - and giving birth is one of them). There is no need for teenagers (especially ages between 12-17) to even have sex - yet more and more of them have it - because they don't need to carry the consequences. I'm also very much against people treating sex as nothing more then a pleasurable excercize (regarthless of the age group) - and they too are taking comfort in knowing they won't have to deal with the side effects.

Let me first say that I totally agree with you on this point. I am 25 years old, and I am still a virgin. Simply because I don't see the point in having casual sex. However, just because there is no need for teenagers to even have sex in the first place, they do. And as long as people do, they need a system that can offer the best solution for everyone involved.

So I am against abortion, but every rule alows exceptions. If the situation is really such, that an abortion should be performed - the rules should be ignored.
So abortion will become an exception - not the rule! And people (both women and men) would not take it too easily!

Again you claim that abortion should be a legal illegal thing to do. So you imply there should be a choice in the matter. As long as there is a choice involved, that choice should be located with the future mother.

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by taikara+Sep 22 2005, 02:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (taikara @ Sep 22 2005, 02:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Seb
Why should a future human life be killed, to support her lust?

I find this insulting. In my experience, lust is one thing, and it only requires only one person. Sex, the actual act that leads to pregnancy, requires two people. And if you haven't noticed, your gender is the one that typically pushes my gender to cross the line from simple lust into the actual act. Not always, obviously, but I know that almost all the guys I've known are ridiculously pushy when it comes to that sort of thing. [/b][/quote]
I'm more then happy to hear, that you don't mix sex and lust. That for you sex is still an intimate thing conected with feelings of love. Therefor I'm sorry if I insoulted you - yet you surely know there are people that have sex simply to satisfy their lust (again, glad to hear you're not among them - as I'm quite convinced many other people on this forum aren't).

And sadly it's true that many time the males of our species are the ones who preasure the females of our species into the intercourse. Yet recently (at least here - and yes Tom, I guess you could move here) it's been the other way around. Ever since I was aware of the sexual issues, it's been the pressure upon men to have as much of it as they should - and the women were the ones pressuring them. It is also women here that expect the men to be some weird macho freaks (making fun of pasifism). A woman is more likely to insoult you for not wanting to get involved in a fist fight then a man (at least where I live).

About other things I talked about (mostly replying to Tom):
I know it's hard to say that something should be legal or illegal. But like with all the things in life (and I guess I mentioned this in some other discussions) the main problem with laws is, that they wish to be absolute. But people should be dealt with on case-to-case basis. So what applys to one person should not necesarily apply to another person! And this is probably why I am so much against abortion. It may seem strange, but I would allow abortion - if one could also be denied this right (again making it both legal and illegal at the same time).

Honestly i think people don't have enough sex, and i blame sexual frustration (male mainly) for 95% of the evil in this sad old world.

And here's another thing I can't agree with (and I explaind this in this very thread). Sex is overrated and forcefully presented to everybody! Every comertial, joke, song, sit-com, even many cartoons are full of SEX. This only gives people wrong images so they think it's more importaint then it actually is. They are drugged with the idea that they need a lot of sex - even at the age prior to puberty! And so they are frustrated if they don't get it, because they think they should have it or they'll be missing out on the purpose of their life. It's the patterns they are getting from all over the place. Take away those patterns and they will be less frustrated (but they still won't be sexually crippled for it - now they actually are).

EDIT:

You mean, abortion will remain an exception. It's really not as common as people here seem to believe.

Well then the situation there is yet again different from the situation we have here. I know a woman who had four abrtions already (she's a prostitute - by her choice, because she found out she could have a much nicer life this way then if she got a different job). I also know two girls who had more then one abortion already (one had two, the other 3) and they still don't even consider using any other contraception. All three cases are gypsy women - who decided to leave school at the age of 13. One is now 32 years old the other two are between 17 and 21.

EDIT2:
And their abortions were payed for by taxpayers money. That's our health-care system.

[Lonely Vazdru]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Sep 22 2005, 03:16 PM
Sex is overrated and forcefully presented to everybody! Every comertial, joke, song, sit-com, even many cartoons are full of SEX. This only gives people wrong images so they think it's more importaint then it actually is. They are drugged with the idea that they need a lot of sex - even at the age prior to puberty!

Man, that was true since the begining of ages ! That's why modern media (TV, Movies, Videos) are so full of it, not the other way around. The sexual frustration i was talking about has been driving the male ego for so long that i don't know if those that had other things on their mind (mostly survival i guess) can be called men at all. Anyway that was so long ago, who cares ? Men's unsatisfied lust has always been there it seems. Or at least since there has been written testimonies of it which is long enough ago !

[taikara]

Then we're in somewhat of a conscientious catch-22.

You see, more and more parents are having children while not being mentally prepared to teach those children the values of right and wrong - after all, good character begins at home.

In the meantime, we're in the predicament where it is becoming more and more difficult to educate our children on the rights and wrongs and society because of overpopulation and the fact that governments cannot provide a quality educational experience to the masses of children.

So, our society is becoming more and more decadent and immoral, but in order to help solve the problem, and provide quality homes and education to our children and enrich our lives, we could completely legalize what many refer to as murder, thereby culling overpopulation and allowing us to give quality lives to children that we do allow to be born.

Personally, I think my vote goes for quality, not quantity.

Originally posted by Seb
Well then the situation there is yet again different from the situation we have here. I know a woman who had four abrtions already (she's a prostitute - by her choice, because she found out she could have a much nicer life this way then if she got a different job). I also know two girls who had more then one abortion already (one had two, the other 3) and they still don't even consider using any other contraception. All three cases are gypsy women - who decided to leave school at the age of 13. One is now 32 years old the other two are between 17 and 21.

EDIT2:
And their abortions were payed for by taxpayers money. That's our health-care system.

I'm just going to take a brief moment to point out here that prostitution wouldn't be a valid profession if men weren't so desperate for sex that they'd pay for it.

If a woman can make a living by prostitution, then what's wrong with taxpayers paying for the health hazards of her profession?

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Lonely Vazdru@Sep 22 2005, 03:28 PM
Man, that was true since the begining of ages ! That's why modern media (TV, Movies, Videos) are so full of it, not the other way around. The sexual frustration i was talking about has been driving the male ego for so long that i don't know if those that had other things on their mind (mostly survival i guess) can be called men at all. Anyway that was so long ago, who cares ?

The image of sex wasn't inflicted upon them by media, but they were shown the real thing all the time. People lived in small habitats (sometimes even entire tribes, later on families) together. They also always had animals. Grown-ups and animals had sex and chidren saw it. And it's know that there is no more potent way to stimulate the lust in a person then to actually withness a sexual act.

What those children saw (as a part of nature) the children today are being shown through the media.

But there have been cases when children were not submited to such images - and those are people usually became something more then regular 'mortals'. Because they had none of that sexual frustration. They became the best thinkers, philosophers, inventors, scientist... (among other things), because their lives weren't preocupied with sex!

So now, that we finally could turn this around and could stop forcing sexual images upon the youth - we are giving them even worse images! Before they saw the real natural thing, with real natural people doing it. Now they get TV creations presenting it as the sole purpose of life! Before it was just a normal part of life!

Don't get me wrong - I'm not for censurship, but as long as people will over-emphisize the importance of sex - our society will have several problems triggered by it and easily atributed to sexual frustration (but no-body will admit that it's society inflicted).

[Tom Henrik]

Yet recently (at least here - and yes Tom, I guess you could move here) it's been the other way around. Ever since I was aware of the sexual issues, it's been the pressure upon men to have as much of it as they should - and the women were the ones pressuring them. It is also women here that expect the men to be some weird macho freaks (making fun of pasifism). A woman is more likely to insoult you for not wanting to get involved in a fist fight then a man (at least where I live).

I do hope Rainwife doesn't read that statement of yours. And I kinda like the place I live in now. Thanks for the offer, nontheless.

But like with all the things in life (and I guess I mentioned this in some other discussions) the main problem with laws is, that they wish to be absolute. But people should be dealt with on case-to-case basis. So what applys to one person should not necesarily apply to another person! And this is probably why I am so much against abortion.

So... you want to remove all laws as they try to be absolute, and people should be handed on a case-to-case basis... apart from abortions, where it should be illegal. Your society will have one law, and that is NO ABORTIONS. Rest is case-to-case... apart from those situations where abortions should be allowed... Still implies someone is given a vote in the matter.

Sex is overrated and forcefully presented to everybody! Every comertial, joke, song, sit-com, even many cartoons are full of SEX. This only gives people wrong images so they think it's more importaint then it actually is. They are drugged with the idea that they need a lot of sex - even at the age prior to puberty!

Actually, the fact that I see sex everywhere has made me realize that it is a natural thing. Just like walking around or doing sport. I am bombarded with sex from every angle, but I am still a virgin. I am definately not drugged with the idea that I need a lot of sex, and neither is any of my friends. They only have sex when they are in a relationship.

I know a woman who had four abrtions already (she's a prostitute - by her choice, because she found out she could have a much nicer life this way then if she got a different job).

Yes, she sound like a fine mother material. Let's force her to have those babies, I am sure they will learn good morals from their mother and be valuable members to our society.

I also know two girls who had more then one abortion already (one had two, the other 3) and they still don't even consider using any other contraception. All three cases are gypsy women - who decided to leave school at the age of 13. One is now 32 years old the other two are between 17 and 21.

You are aware that gypsies are a hunted group of people? I sincerely don't think they left school by their own choice. And as with every tiny and closed community, sex is abundant - and rarely the choice of the girl. And I have a hard time imagining that the men in the community would want to use a condom anyways. So why should the girl even consider it?

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by taikara@Sep 22 2005, 03:41 PM
I'm just going to take a brief moment to point out here that prostitution wouldn't be a valid profession if men weren't so desperate for sex that they'd pay for it.

If a woman can make a living by prostitution, then what's wrong with taxpayers paying for the health hazards of her profession?

Well like I said before - at least here (in Slovenia) the sexual drive is created by the female side!

It's not normal, that boys at the age of 8 or 9 are already sexually frustrated - and it's down right perverted, that it's because of the girls of the same age! Girls making fun of them, because they haven't seen a single porn movie at the age of 8/9. I don't know how it's possible, but statistics in this region showed that 40% of girls younger then 10 saw at least 1 hard-core porn movies! With boys the statistic showed only 3% and boys were rediculed by girls for not havning seen them.

The situation is worse then just decadent.

So yes - those boys would be sexually frustrated!

And on the topic of prostitution as a profession - an average Slovene prostitute has some 20 hours of apointments in a week and only around 2 hours of actual sex a week. So the men are either very quick or are looking for something completely different in a prostitue then sex.

And why shouldn't the abortions be payed for with taxpayers money - because at the same time eye operations aren't, heart and kidney operations are only partial covered by the health care - yet abortion was full covered (until 3 years ago), now it's fully covered only for certain population groups.

I guess my opinion could be different if I were in a different country, having different experiance - and probably not knowing the statistics of the youth population in Slovenia (which were a real shock to me when I found out about them).

EDIT:

So... you want to remove all laws as they try to be absolute, and people should be handed on a case-to-case basis... apart from abortions, where it should be illegal. Your society will have one law, and that is NO ABORTIONS. Rest is case-to-case... apart from those situations where abortions should be allowed... Still implies someone is given a vote in the matter.

NO, I'm not 100% against abortion. It would also be dealt with on case-to-case basis! Just like everything should be (in my opinion). Otherwise - why even have courts of justice? If not dealing in case-to-case bases? The main function of a court in my opinion is to decide if the reasons for breaking a law justify the action or not. If a person breaks the law - that person is a law breaker. If we wouldn't go from case to case - they could simply all be punished. But if the reasons for breaking a law are valid - then a person should be pardoned. And I never said I'm 100% AGAINST abortion.

I guess what all this really leads to is this (and it has nothing to do with abortion really):
The entire human society has way too many problems and can't really solve them. So everything should start again from the most fundamental basis (like Descartes said - I think therefor I am - meaning, this is the only truth he knew, and he had to find out everything else, rejecting the knowladge that existed - unless he could prove it correct). So if there's ever a new world to be populated - the social rules should be fundamentaly different from the ones we have now!

Actually, the fact that I see sex everywhere has made me realize that it is a natural thing. Just like walking around or doing sport. I am bombarded with sex from every angle, but I am still a virgin. I am definately not drugged with the idea that I need a lot of sex, and neither is any of my friends. They only have sex when they are in a relationship.

I know this will sound like categorising people (because it actually is), but I think it's true: All of us, who are talking here about it are at an intelectual, cultural, self-controling... scale - higer then average people. Just compate your self to an average peron of your country and tell me - are you (most of all intelectually) an average person? Is an average person in your country as educated as you? Behaves the way you do? Has the same views on life as you do? I know this sounds elitist, but most people on this forum (actually most people even debating things like this) are above the social average. So don't judge the world according to yourself - but according to the people around you.
I was also constantly bombarded by sex - and yet I was a virgin until I met Rainwife 5 years ago. I do enjoy jokes with sexual contense and have nothing against comertials showing sexual imagery (sounds hipocritical right) - but I see the damage it's doing on other people. In my line of work I get to meet a lot of children, their younger and older syblings and also their parents, grandparents - from all social classes and different backgrounds. And I'm telling you - I've seen more then enough average people and how all of this effected them. I guess this also contributed a lot to my point of view.

[Chuck the plant]

@ Lonely Vazdru: Who would've thtought we actually agreed on some things?

@ tai:
My point exactly... it's always easy tp point the finger towards prostitution and such without considering WHY it even exists... and that reason is most certainly not "because they can't keep their legs together"...

@ Sebatianos:
I know we had this discussion already (I even still have those PMs ), but you're mixing up a few things here, I guess. Especially regarding the influence of sexual frustration and the definition of sexual frustration itself.
The kind of sexual frustration we (I take the liberty of speaking for at least Vazdru and me here) mean is not the kind of "Oh my god, I never had sex with two women like the media tells me everyone had"-frustration, but more profound and more simple: The simple frustration rising from the OPRESSION of ones own sexuality. This opression might be due to an opressive surrounding (society, family etc.), religious aspects (which also blends into society etc. of course), other aspects of "moral values" etc. The frustration arising from that is not really even IDENTIFIED as being sexually related by the "victim", but most of the time the pent-up aggression that rises through it (a simple hormone-induced phenomenon) seeks its release. One way or the other. And mostly its violent. It can result in rape, violence against others, even murder. And that's were I also agree with Vazdru. I also believe that a LARGE part of the atrocities in human history have happened because of this kind of sexual frustration. Even more in those times when sexuality WASN'T actually condoned much in our western societies.
Without wanting to insult any catholics and other christians, but I even dare to say that a huge ammount of the violent excesses that happened during the middle ages (crusades, the Inquisition etc.) up to the 18th century (which trials) are results of the opressive stance of most christian churches towards sexuality, especially and even more so the female one (of course this also happens in other religions like Islam and Judaism). The frustration pent up through the supression of simple sexual needs (which were always there since the beginning of mankind, we have not BECOME like this. It just moved back a little more into public awareness) simply found another ventile. And that's the sad way it often goes. In fact, this simple mechanism is still used until today. Think of boxers that don't get to have sex for some time before a fight to build up their aggresion etc. That's not because they're so screwed up by the media that they can't go without anymore, but those are simple and profound instincts. Mankind (and especially men) has always been like that. It's just now that we are allowed to talk about it and live it more openly. I can't see why this is a bad thing.

BTW, some of the "greatest thinkers" indeed had a very satisfied sex-life.
Einstein had several wives and affairs. Schiller and Goethe were notorious for their lifestyle. Martin Luther recommended to have sex at least twice a week. And so on.

EDIT: Well, reading about your home-country... don't you agree that the problem lies more in its society than in the general concept of abortion then? Honestly, I think what you are describing is far away from the happenings in almost any other european and/or american country (so not to use the term "western world"), in a sense that it is much more extrem. But the point is: It's not abortion that's to blame for it, and prohibiting it would in no way reduce the mess, but make it even bigger.