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[_r.u.s.s.]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(laiocfar @ May 30 2006, 03:39 AM) [snapback]233146[/snapback]</div>

4)

CCCP was in 1917, one of the most retrograd countries in the world. In 1950, even with the Stalin attrocities it got their living standars pump up and was the one the two most powerfull nations.
[/b]

while democratic countries developed much faster. science is moving further you can't for example just say "make 56172 new toilets until next 4 years and fulill our plan on 140%, considering previous 4 years" becouse you don't know how many people will sh!t..ok that was silly example, but you know what i mean.

[rlbell]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(_r.u.s.s. @ May 30 2006, 04:50 PM) [snapback]233329[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(laiocfar @ May 30 2006, 03:39 AM) [snapback]233146[/snapback]

4)

CCCP was in 1917, one of the most retrograd countries in the world. In 1950, even with the Stalin attrocities it got their living standars pump up and was the one the two most powerfull nations.
[/b]

while democratic countries developed much faster. science is moving further you can't for example just say "make 56172 new toilets until next 4 years and fulill our plan on 140%, considering previous 4 years" becouse you don't know how many people will sh!t..ok that was silly example, but you know what i mean.
[/b][/quote]

The failure of soviet central planning of the economy was less a flawed concept than a flawed implementation. Instead of basing the economic plans and projections on what was really possible, they were based on what matched what the current political masters dictated as required. The upper levels dictated unrealistic production goals. The lower levels were trapped on the horns of a dilemna. They could either report the truth and try to explain reality to their political masters, or they could lie. The upper levels now had the problem of people telling them only what they wanted to hear which quickly divorced them from reality. In the end, the economic planning applied to some mythical Soviet Union that never did, or would exist and factory managers muddled on as best they could.

Whether it would have worked if reality was consulted on a regular basis is an unknown, but the concept has been as discredited as the diesel in american passenger cars, or variable displacement engines (two GM products that were inflicted on the american public as fuel saving measures, but were replaced with conventional engines to stop the complaints[If anybody really wants to know about it, message me. If there are several requests, I will start a thread on good ideas gone bad])

[plix]

Quick notes:
- Socialism is an economic theory, not a political one. Socialism and communism are two different, though related, concepts.
- The US is not a democracy, it's a democratic republic (Athens of antiquity is generally cited as the only true democracy).
- Communism is by definition stateless. This is the key distinction which is made between true communism and Leninism, Maoism, etc.
- Stateless does not necessisarily imply anarchy. While communism is closely related to anarchy the two are not the same. Anarchist theory is based around the individual where as communism is based around the collective. That is to say, an anarchist is his own governor whereas the a communist is but a member of a larger collective.

[laiocfar]

ou are mistaken. In 1917 there was a only a revolution. CCCP was formed in 1922 on 30 December. As for me, maybe communism is a cool system. But you can't do so as sheeps are safe and sound and wolves are replete. [/b]

Yeap, you are right i erased 5 years of war in a few words; even when most of soviets (circle of militars, workers, farmers or studiants) were formed in 1917, no CCCP until the end of the war with the with rusians(zarist) and the menchebikes vs volchebikes dispute.

Communism works best when everyone has nothing, and there is no wealth to redistribute. Cuba may not have better health care than the best available to americans, but working class cubans are better off than working class americans, and Elian Gonzales had a longer life expectancy as a little cuban boy than a little boy in a working class, South Florida household (at least, so says the World Health Organization).[/b]

I was talking about all America, no US. Anyway, the cuban healthcare system is one of the best avaible of America. Its true that the life ecpectancy is lower than many sites but Cuba cannot import many medicaments. I was there and i all La Havana, there isnt a single aspirine. The alphabet rate is also in the top of the America. When i uses the expresion the top, means that is between the 5 better or similar..

I wish to reply plix and russ but i am short in time for end so homework :bleh:

[gregor]

athens as true democracy? ha, ha.... what about the slaves? and women who can't vote? somehow they don't fit in democracy.

[Havell]

The difference between a pure democracy and a democratic republic is the way decisions are made.. In a pure democracy, ALL decisions are voted upon, whereas in a democratic republic a government is elected to make the decisions on behalf of the people. It's an important distintion.

And the slaves and things don't stop Athens from being a democrary, all democracies put restrictions on who can and can't vote (eg children and convicts cannot vote in most modern, western democraries). Athens' restrictinos are more strict than most you'll find today, but it's still a democracy.

[gregor]

there were so few of those that could vote that there was no point in electing government.

[laiocfar]

Havell is talking about Representative democracy or direct democracy. Athenas or the swiss cantons of Rousseau where direct or true democracies, it can be only coz there was too few people(Swiss) or most of people were slave and cant vote(Athens).
Key element of a modern, capitalist democracy:
- election trough parties (no soviet system).
- Human rights.
- The election should be free, scret and open
- There should be the chance of change the power of hands.

[U-Boat Commander David]

Democtaric Republic=Important Decisions are made by governement, unimportant Bullsh!t gets Voted by the People.

Democracy=EVERYTHING gets votet by the People, the problem is that most people are Stupid as hell, thus this system can't Really work.

[Elon Yariv]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(U-Boat Commander David @ May 27 2006, 06:24 PM) [snapback]232598[/snapback]</div>

You are coloring everything black and white.

Capitalism or Democracy=Good
Communism or The Soviet union=Bad

I'm Communist. Serious. And you all Should read this.

http://www.communism.com/

Click the "Frequentley Asked Questions About Communism".

But not forget that "Real" Communism can only work without military or Police if the Whole world is Communistic. Otherwise the Communistic countrys need defense throught military and Police.
[/b]

I don't agree with you.

Capitalism(Democracy)=BAD
How communism was exploited and turned into a tyriany=BAD
_________________________
Capitalism is bad since it lets the capitalist people do nearly everything they want. Capitalism is nearly as bad as tyrainy. The capitalists try all the time to get more money and if not stopped and suppresed they will turn the workers into slaves:
- In my country the normal manager's salary is 30 times bigger then his employe's and sometimes he tries to make the diffrence larger and stealing a bigger salary. Sometimes the managers steal the workers' basic rights that the law gives him(they have many ways to out smart the law) and gives him the minimum fee. The workers wont try to rebel for they are afraid to lose their jobs, thus they are kept as slaves. What will the managers do with all the money they earn? NOTHING, just to fulfill their greed!!! If people will take only what they need and wont persute after the lesures, most of the sorrow and egoney in this world will stop.
- A second example is the USA, only this much worse. USA has always been a capitalist country. When it was devided both it's parts were both capitalistic. The north didn't relay on slaves hence it's laws were kinder to the black. The south and the capitalists that lived there did relay on slaves(sometimes one man owned 1000 slaves) so they saw the black men as dust.
_________________________
The idea of cummonisim was nice and tried to get rid of the capitalisits and make life easier for the workers.
How it was turned into a tyrian is the bad thing...

The pure communistic idea can only work if the people are all idealistic and wise. If they aren't wise they'll be enslaved to anybody that hides and justifies his horible deeds with the ideas of communism.