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[Rogue]

4 more years.... :blink:

http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/scp/vi...&event_id=14994

god help us.... LOL

[Sebatianos]

Well I guess it's my turn to say something...
First off - I don't think it's Bush who's doing this. One man alone can never do this. And if you take a look at the Clinton administration - US was in war back then too. Only back then it was the war on drugs and it was happening in their own back yard - latin America. They were able to make that war popular, by making movies about it and everybody wanted to stop drugs anyway... So what if they aply a bit of preasure on some banana-government (not ment as an insult to anyone living in smaller countries south of Rio Grande) to allow their troops to go in.
Now drugs aren't importaint anymore. People were sick and tired of drug treaths and the military involvment wasn't big enough. A country with such a huge war machinery as US can not afford not to go to war. If they don't go to war they have to reduce their army budget - and that would mean a disaster! Do you even know how many people got a steady job and a comfortable life because they worked for companies that had governmet contracts for building army products? Most of american industry that is still home based could collapse!
So if the choice of the government is to let their country get ruined or find a good excuse to go to war... Well so far we know what they chose! The problem is that most products made in America can't compete with the products of far east (because of the cheap labour force). And even if US get a cheap enough laber force - it's not american citizens, but emigrants who are prepared to work for less (thus the unemploymant rate gets higher). And after some time even those workers realise they have some rights and will demand more, so the prices have to go up and the company is not competitive any more.
American economy stands on very thin ice!!! Most people are overdepth - loans and morgages of all sorts... And most of it's heavy industry is moveing or has moved abroad... Health and social security rate is extremely low, and it's up to an individual to take care of it... Only type of industry that still seems to be in the rise is the entertainment industry (films, music, yellow press, sports, talk shows,...) which has reached a definite low in quality (with some exceptions). Besides media (who controls the entertainment - and public opinion) there is only one other strong branch - and that's the military.
Not to mention the fact that the remains of the industry is poluting in a big way - and thus US has to ignore the international agreements like the Kyoto protocol (which is seriously outdated anyway). But it's easier to ignore an agreement that's backed up with militery actions. Start a war agains Iraq and break some international treaties (with an excuse that your own people would believe all the way) and no one will even think of trying to convince you to except a protocol to preotect the environment...
So I think the root of the problem is much deeper. Will US attach Iran? If there's no better target - yes, because not to attack will mean that the US will start to fall apart (which it eventually will). Many people compare it with the Roman empire - yes there are many paralels and yes - both ends will be just about the same (it's only a question of time - and who the next Byzantium will be).

What, still wanna read more? Well start thinking on your own - I haven't all the answers :bye:

[Tulac]

Reading your post , it basically covers my point of view too,but I have this to add:

USA isn't run by presidents it's run by CORPORATIONS and their interest, which in the long run made US the superpower it is today, however, US will be (economically) defeated by China , it's already started, and China will become the new superpower sooner than you think , and I mean economically and not so much in political power.

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Tulac@Jan 19 2005, 09:14 PM
...and I mean economically and not so much in political power.

Is there really any difference? Usually the political power derives either from great military strength, or from great economy strength (usually a superpower has both) - and rerely one might have some power because they hold a vital resource (but that just usually makes one a target of a superpower).

[Tulac]

Well China won't be able to influence the world so much until it totally get's rid off communism, I know they've started to open up but if they'll use authocracy so much, they will be suspicios to other countries, and the rest of the world might team up on them...(Like commies and capitalists did in WW2, against the greater threat)

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Tulac@Jan 19 2005, 07:14 PM
USA isn't run by presidents it's run by CORPORATIONS and their interest

God, I was under the impression that sentance died together with the word "Flowerpower"

[Sebatianos]

Could be, on the other hand, there's an ever growing number of people that are developing some sort of communist nostalgia (people from many eastern coutries).
Sayings like: "Before you had the obligation to work even if you couldn't get rich - now you have the right to starve to death and complain about it." aren't exactly sure signs of communism being defeeted - it's a good idea, that was misused by some individuals. So with some addaptations (a more liberal form, that would find a fine line between market economy, social security and government involvmant...). Who knows.
@Stroggy: The sentance might be old, but can you honestly say it's not true?

[Nick]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Jan 19 2005, 06:25 PM
Well I guess it's my turn to say something...
First off - I don't think it's Bush who's doing this. One man alone can never do this. And if you take a look at the Clinton administration - US was in war back then too. Only back then it was the war on drugs and it was happening in their own back yard - latin America. They were able to make that war popular, by making movies about it and everybody wanted to stop drugs anyway... So what if they aply a bit of preasure on some banana-government (not ment as an insult to anyone living in smaller countries south of Rio Grande) to allow their troops to go in.
Now drugs aren't importaint anymore. People were sick and tired of drug treaths and the military involvment wasn't big enough. A country with such a huge war machinery as US can not afford not to go to war. If they don't go to war they have to reduce their army budget - and that would mean a disaster! Do you even know how many people got a steady job and a comfortable life because they worked for companies that had governmet contracts for building army products? Most of american industry that is still home based could collapse!
So if the choice of the government is to let their country get ruined or find a good excuse to go to war... Well so far we know what they chose! The problem is that most products made in America can't compete with the products of far east (because of the cheap labour force). And even if US get a cheap enough laber force - it's not american citizens, but emigrants who are prepared to work for less (thus the unemploymant rate gets higher). And after some time even those workers realise they have some rights and will demand more, so the prices have to go up and the company is not competitive any more.
American economy stands on very thin ice!!! Most people are overdepth - loans and morgages of all sorts... And most of it's heavy industry is moveing or has moved abroad... Health and social security rate is extremely low, and it's up to an individual to take care of it... Only type of industry that still seems to be in the rise is the entertainment industry (films, music, yellow press, sports, talk shows,...) which has reached a definite low in quality (with some exceptions). Besides media (who controls the entertainment - and public opinion) there is only one other strong branch - and that's the military.
Not to mention the fact that the remains of the industry is poluting in a big way - and thus US has to ignore the international agreements like the Kyoto protocol (which is seriously outdated anyway). But it's easier to ignore an agreement that's backed up with militery actions. Start a war agains Iraq and break some international treaties (with an excuse that your own people would believe all the way) and no one will even think of trying to convince you to except a protocol to preotect the environment...
So I think the root of the problem is much deeper. Will US attach Iran? If there's no better target - yes, because not to attack will mean that the US will start to fall apart (which it eventually will). Many people compare it with the Roman empire - yes there are many paralels and yes - both ends will be just about the same (it's only a question of time - and who the next Byzantium will be).

What, still wanna read more? Well start thinking on your own - I haven't all the answers :bye:

Good point about Roman empire and Byzantium. But, like I said, I don't think, that further expansion will help US to set right the situation in their country (like you mentioned about their economic, social situation etc.). This is because all Arabian world is a big pack of terrorists. You probably saw on TV about terrorists training camps. We are living in time, where we are showing about how other people learning in how to kill us!
But the topic is not about it. But, to think, really it looks like conquest of the all, that is not conquested, is the only option left to US, if they want to stay in Union a little more. But it won't help much, because if US attack another Islamic country, like Iran, they are going to meet the resistance of the all Arabian world. And the conquested countries especially, of course. And then the collapse of the most democratic country in the world will be very fast. So... we shall see, what they'll do next.
Somebody in one of the posts said, that US could attack China. Well, this is really madness. There are 1, 400, 000, 000 of them nevertheless! k: No... I think, that couldn't be excluded war between our countries. Or China against us. We've been told in university, that US has a plan of making the conflict between Russia and China. But, the hell, anyway I'll better fight the US, not Chinese! So I hope, if the war will broke out, it would be the war against US! Don't listen very much to the speeches of politicians about how good are our relationships. We were and will be the enemies, until there is only one country left.
Although, if I was born in, to say, 1750, I would gladly and surely travel to the colonies in 1775 to fight the revolution! I miss these times very much... I mean all the XVIII century.

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Jan 19 2005, 07:32 PM

@Stroggy: The sentance might be old, but can you honestly say it's not true?

Can you honestly say its only the US?

The entire world is under the influence of corperations, not just the 'evil' US.
And, when push comes to shove, do politicians really have different goals than CEOs?

[Tulac]

@Stroggy:Well US has much more liberal market than let's say France(which owns many companies), so Corps.(not the dead bodies) definetaly play a bigger part in politics in US than in before menrioned France
@Sebatianos: Communist nostalgics will get old and die eventually, I know by my parents, but the world is left to younger people and they hac very little or no memory of communism.Anyway doesn't everybody how it was much better in the good old days??