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[a1s]

you know, I suddenly realized how cool it is when you can just say: "god made it happen. end of story". I mean, we scientific atheists have to gather up tons of data to prove our point, and then when the last piece of data doesn't add up- >poof< you need a new theory. yours on the other hand had survived for over two thousand years on just these 4 words. I almost feel jewless of you guys...

[wendymaree]

But, you know, truth IS stranger than fiction. Perhaps the world is not quite as we perceive it with our physical senses, and perhaps this is why there are so many anomolies cropping up over the centuries.

[Sebatianos]

OR...
Maybe we are not yet sure what we do percive with our senses - that's why we misinterpret them. That's why we should gather more and more knowledge and incourage the intelectual growth. This doesn't mean however, that we can neglect our spiritual site (both can grow - if one doesn't become to radical in one's views). Just keep an open mind and try to understand as much as you can.

[Yobor]

Once again, I just have to say: Hkizzle, I love you.

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Hkizzle@Apr 3 2005, 08:19 AM
After talking to my friend who is Christian. We both agreed that it was pointless to find scientific basis for the flood or genesis.
Many acts in the bible are miracles that defy scientific basis, and require faith. So why on earth do people suddenly come out with what are inaccurate arguements on a scientific level to support the bible?

The perfect example is when Jesus fed 5,000 people with two fish and five loaves of bread. Everyone was full, the fish were not whales, and the bread were normal size. Scientifically it is impossible. You can't find an arguement to explain it logically.

It was a miracle, if you believe in it then nothing wrong with that. But it is called faith.

Someone brought up the arguement against the bible, saying that there was not enough room on the ark for all the animals and their food. There doesn't have to be, God makes it possible.

There also doesn't have to be enough water on earth for the flood to be scientifically possible, because there isn't. God can make it happen.

AH...
Now this might be the problem...

It said such things in the bible. But such miracules only happened to the people in that point in time (if they did at all). So people started doubting this is true...

Now if they would stop believing this was true, they might stop believeing some other things are true as well. But instead of understanding the bible as a metaphore (fed 5000 people could be: -he fed many hungry people... -he fed their souls not their bodies... -they were able to forget about hunger because of their will power or something so importaint that they simply felt no more hunger...) the bible was said to be the entire truth - so if it said 5000 there had to be exactly that many.

If you take most bible stories and look for the moral (and take in the consideration that everything else was just a writing instrument to support that moral) you'll see the point of it. But if you start understanding it word by word - there will be some illogical things that will requre pure and blind faith (and that's dangerous). It's this was of thinking that led to great bloodsheads in the name of the cross.

[Hkizzle]

But that's the thing. I've spoken to both Catholic priests and Baptist pastors and the bible is meant to be taken literally.

The miracles that Christ performed are amongst the most important things in Christian faith. Many of the stories of his miracles, even non Christians know. But if they are not to be taken literally, then we take them as metaphors of a message?

You must take biblical passages as truth if you believe.

A very common debate is that God created the World in 6 periods and not 6 days. This for many brings comfort as they can think of creation in millions of years. But as mentioned already, according to the bible, the World is 6000 years old.

The World changes, but principles in religion should never change. God lays down his word, and it's the truth, that's it.

An example of how people think changing religious principles is okay, is the ordaination of a gay priest in the US Anglican church.

Now I have nothing against gay people, and I have gay friends. But if I was a devot christian, homosexual behaviour is not okay. In the bible, homosexuality is called an abomination and in God's eyes, one of the worst sins. You don't change a principle like this just because society has changed.

Religion is black and white, you don't make compromises. To do so, is to not have any intergrity and going back on the truth of God's words and laws.

[Yobor]

I think what Hkizzle is saying is that if a 'Believer' does not take the bible literally, then his entire premise for the religions fails.

For example, like Hkizzle said, Homosexuals. I know many people who love homosexual people, and I know many who do not. The bible clearly states that homosexuality is 'sinning against god'. Some people claim to believe in this god, but then, when asked about certain subjects, say the bible is wrong or that 'they didn't really mean to write that'. (Quote from my classmate). If your entire religion is based on literal interperetation of the bible, then merely thinking this utterly defeats the religion.

Merely thinking defeats ALL religions.
This has kindof been my motto throughout the religion discussions. I simply wish people would think for themselves.

[Yobor]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Apr 3 2005, 02:52 PM
But if you start understanding it word by word - there will be some illogical things that will requre pure and blind faith (and that's dangerous). It's this was of thinking that led to great bloodsheads in the name of the cross.

They want it. That is what the big-wigs of Religion wanted back then. Christianity used deceit and lies, and outright murder, to gain power. Then, by enforcing fanatical worship by their followers, they invaded other countries in 'The Name of God'. They enforced blind faith.

This sentiment has lived on, and people everywhere still blindly follow whatever the church throws at them.

[Havell]

The bible has been translated from Hebrew, so many things are bound to be mistranslated or misunderstood by the translator, also, people who read the bible interpret it differantly to others who read it, when this is added together there are a huge number of things that certain passages of the bible can mean. I myself think that anyone who beleives a single source of information absolutely and without question is an idiot.

@Hkizzle, you don't have to take every word of the bible as truth to be a christian, Jesus told many parables with basic morals in them, why can't the rest of the bible be just this? A collection of stories with morals contained within them.

With regard to the world being created in 6 days:

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
2 Peter 3:8

This means that God is outside of normal time, so what may have seemed like 6 days to him could be like many billions of years to us.

@Yobor, I would be quite interested to see the bible passage that says that homosexuality is a sin and women cannot be priests.

[Lizard]

Originally posted by Yobor+Apr 4 2005, 03:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Yobor @ Apr 4 2005, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Sebatianos@Apr 3 2005, 02:52 PM
But if you start understanding it word by word - there will be some illogical things that will requre pure and blind faith (and that's dangerous). It's this was of thinking that led to great bloodsheads in the name of the cross.

They want it. That is what the big-wigs of Religion wanted back then. Christianity used deceit and lies, and outright murder, to gain power. Then, by enforcing fanatical worship by their followers, they invaded other countries in 'The Name of God'. They enforced blind faith.

This sentiment has lived on, and people everywhere still blindly follow whatever the church throws at them. [/b][/quote]
They dont behaved other than any other country,kingdom or force in that time. In middle age, church was force like any other (infact he was most powerful, becouse he controled everyday life to almost every people from peasants to lords)
If you have almost ultimate power of other people,you WILL think you are infallible.
Things that had church done in past, has his roots in poltics as well as in religion.
I am not trying to execuse them. It is alway terrible when you mistreat belief as tool to control people, but also quite effective :whistle: