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[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Iron_Scarecrow@Dec 12 2004, 07:51 AM
So who won the Arguement? :help:

That's easy - the one who convinced you is the winner in your eyes...
The question is - what convinced you and if you are objective or subjective. IT's easier to convince a persont that want's to hear what you wanna say - but you don't need any arguments for that...

BTW - round 8 is long over...
You're in the 24th round - time for some heavy weapons!!!
:karate:

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Dec 12 2004, 10:03 AM
You're in the 24th round - time for some heavy weapons!!!
:karate:

No, I would say not. Time to let others say something too, they both could take a break.

[bohor]

hmm, from this argument I learned that patriotism can be used for good and bad things...

[Tom Henrik]

This is why I hate patriotism.

It is a word, and by simply USING it... people start arguing.

When patriotism is done as an act, it creates war. Either between persons or countries.


Freddy said that he would fight on the site of his motherland Russia, in case of a war between Russia and Germany. What if he meet one of his German friends in the front? Will he fire? Will he fire on other Germans?

If Norway goes to war against some other country (for instance Germany, where my dad lives) I would not fight for any of the countries. I would have gone to a different contry - thinking "God, what IDIOTS" - and waited for both countries to grow up.

I don't feel connected to any country. I am connected to the people I meet, the earth I walk, and the sounds I hear. For me to participate in a war would be the same as cutting these bonds.

Kill someone, anyone will cut my first bond.
Setting an explosion or detroying a building will cut the second bond.
Not listened to reason or prayers would cut the second bond.

Without my bonds I am nothing.



Patriotism... Nationalism... Racism...
They all make you think you are seperate from another being or place.
Agreed, you don't have to think that you are better than anyone

Our People Too

, but the fact that you seperate yourself or your land from others... will in the end create disputes.

I think of the world as my playingfield.
Places to see.
People to meet.
Places to live in.
People to live with.

I try to understand everyone and everything.

[Sebatianos]

You're right in describing the negative aspects of patriotism, but it's not just something that produced wars!
War is deffinetly stupid and if a country is at war no one should blame you for running away. There should be no wars in the first place. But wars aren't made because of patriotism. Even befor nations developed there were wars. When the first group of human like apes found a water hole and chased the second group away to keep the water to them selves there was a war. It's not right, but it's natuarl. The laws of nature are not nice - it's the survival of the fittest. If something then patriotism helped us overcome this a little bit. Every nation that takes pride in it's culture is proving that they are a certain group that can contribute. If you say I'm Me and I can do this - OK, but if they know your from that and that place - then they'll judge a whole area differently - and that can make a bond. As a patriot you can also be an ambasador of good will, ateacher of the ways of your culture - those are the things that bring people closer together (like when people were exchanging their national pastries in some thread here). Nothing wrong with that - you can only learn and contribute.
And if others see that you're a part of an evolved culture they are less likely to look down on you. So partiotism can and has contributed to the emantipation of differenta nations and has produced a world of greater equality among people of different races... If the descendents of black slaves brought to America wouldnt fell some patriotism and start the civil right movements then they would still be visitning the black only toilets...
So it's not a bad thing - it's what people make of it.
Sorry to say - but if you would stop all the patriotism, nationalism, racism, fundamentalism,... you could still not stop wars. Not that I want them, but if you look into the history (all 7000 years of writen history) you'll see that wars are just a natural way of life - becasue people don't spend enough time on preventing them and setteling their differences in a peaceful manor.
To do that many things must change - and they will, but it'll take us at least another 3000 years until we'll reach the stage advanced enough to stop fighting.

[Rogue]

If Norway goes to war against some other country (for instance Germany, where my dad lives) I would not fight for any of the countries. I would have gone to a different contry - thinking "God, what IDIOTS" - and waited for both countries to grow up.

I don't feel connected to any country. I am connected to the people I meet, the earth I walk, and the sounds I hear. For me to participate in a war would be the same as cutting these bonds.

FreeFreddy,
We did not stop anyone to express their feelings, but I'm sure that our discussion made at least couple of others to rethink what they will post.

Even befor nations developed there were wars.

Seba,
At that time they used different (stupid) reasons based on place you live or what group (civilization) you belong.

I agree that you don't need nationalism or patriotism to make a war, but you need them to convince people to fight for you, and it helps in doing it on large scale.

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Anubis@Dec 12 2004, 06:40 PM
I agree that you don't need nationalism or patriotism to make a war, but you need them to convince people to fight for you, and it helps in doing it on large scale.

Sorry to say that it's not like that!
Look a most wars in the middle ages. They were fought between different monarchs - they all wanted power and land.
The armies were either of forced peasants - that were obkliged to join their lord's army if htey wanted to keep the land they were working on, or the armies were made up of mercenerites. No patriotism what-so-ever.
Now-a-days there are more and more armies that don't use conscription any more - they became paid armies and being a soldier is a job. So sooner or latter these armies will become merceneries again. Just look at american armed forces. How many neglected minority members join the army to get a better education, a steady job,... It's got nothing to do with patriotism!!!

[Tom Henrik]

Uhm... who said patriotism is the basis of ALL wars? :blink:

[Fawfulhasfury]

Oh no. Mind becoming patriotic. Stop this thread! Stop it! It's too late!!
Actually the only unpatriotic thing I can think of is the fact that I don't want to enter the armed forces when I get old enough. I know I'm not brave enough and I'm a bit reckless. I'd probably just end up gettin my head shot off.

[Sebatianos]

It actually isn't a cause for war. It's just a way to mobilize people who lack the respect, knowlade or simple respect for life... behind the idea that it's better to kill then to keep on living like you do.
Wars start for other reasons (mostly political - and then politic is changing the public opinion).